Hello all, this will be my first post on the forums, and I have a rather political question regarding ITF Taekwondo. I'm a WTF Taekwondo student who will be testing for my green belt fairly soon. The school I'm at teaches some boxing steps (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, etc) as well as grappling (both standing and ground). They do grapple sparring, but no boxing sparring. Regardless, I'm glad to be at a taekwondo school that focuses a little bit on the boxing aspect so my hands will be alright. My question is this: I want to expand my horizons from WTF Taekwondo to ITF Taekwondo, since I like ITF's style of sparring much more. Unfortunately I don't have access to any ITF schools in my area, and I like the TKD school I'm currently training at. As a WTF student of Taekwondo, would I be allowed to attend ITF Taekwondo seminars and participate in their sparring drills and technique training? By allowed, I wonder if it would be frowned upon by other ITF students at the seminar, since I'm a WTF student. Also, would it be appropriate to wear my green belt to an ITF seminar, or whichever rank I am in WTF Taekwondo? Or should I wear a white belt since I honestly don't have any experience in ITF Taekwondo? Any answers are appreciated, thank you. ~ Ben
Hello Ben, First welcome to MAP: On the ITF seminar, it will really depend on whoes running it. I would recommend getting in touch with the organiser. The problem will be when it comes to patterns etc, because you will not no were to begin. But for kicking drills etc I cannot imagine why not. So yea get in touch with the instructor running it. Who is it thats running it? Raz
I respectfully suggest that any seminar, regardless of affiliation that doesn't welcome you, should be a seminar that not waste any time or money attending.That being said I would forewarn you that ITF seminars tend to be focused on patterns & doing them the exact way the group mandates they be done. The ITF has been very BIG on standardization for some time now. The WTF/KKW is now doing this on a worldwide basis since they now have Poomsae WCs. So before I would even think about seeing if you could attend, I would try & find out what the seminar will cover % wise! BTW you sound like you go to a good school. Good luck!
Thanks for the informative answers. I don't have a specific seminar in mind yet, but I'm sure I could find one in the New York or Pennsylvania area sometime in November/December or early 2013. I'll definitely contact the instructor running it, and maybe even study up on some of the ITF forms online so I'm not completely lost. But you guys do think the kicking drills and kicking style between WTF and ITF is pretty similar? If not exactly the same?
I think the kicking drills will be different as the goal of them, ie sparring success, is governed by different rules. I'm a little less optimistic than others as I think there may be an insurance/licence problem. I can imagine you approaching an organiser and them asking if you are an ITF member. When you say no they may wonder why they should include you, potentially in place of an ITF member, when you don't pay into the ITF. Why they should train you as a member of a direct rival. They may also worry about insurance. On the off-chance that an accident happens and someone gets hurt I assume the ITF insurance covers all attendees, for you it is different. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not in favour of these attitudes and I'm sure all problems have solutions, but understanding some of the mindsets you come across is worthwhile and helpful. Mitch
Yea welcome to the politicised world of TKD It would probably be easier to go along to a class or 2 ran by an ITF instructor than a seminar. Raz
I know, haha. I'm a bit familiar with the politics of Taekwondo. I think a merger between organizations with more realistic sparring rules would be a great idea. But as a yellow belt green stripe, I don't think my opinion is very important... yet, haha. I would be paying for the seminar itself, and I'm sure I could sign a waiver regarding injury and insurance costs. In terms of the whether they are willing to train me. I guess that's a matter of instructor preference. I did find one seminar back in 2010 that invited both ITF and WTF students. I didn't know if this was customary or an exception to the rule. The instructor was ITF certified, and because there were so many WTF students, instead of practicing Poomsae and sparring steps, he focused more on speed drills. Something everyone could apply to their style of Taekwondo. I guess I will need to be lucky to run across a seminar like this. What I meant with the kicking drills was actually referring to the regular kicking method. For example, do WTF and ITF Taekwondo members chamber, pivot and kick in the same way? I've heard about subtle differences, but would it be easy to move from a WTF to ITF Taekwondo school at a later point in my life? (Depending on location, jobs, etc.) Honestly, the subtleties between kicking form in WTF and ITF has always been something I've been curious about
The waiver would be meaningless so not worth signing if offered. There are so many variations between schools it's hard to say, but a classic example of differences would be the turning kick. ITF schools are more likely to bring the knee up to the outside, pivot and turn in a "karate" style kick (at least in my limited experience of ITF), where WTF will bring the knee through the middle then rotate. The first works power, the second improves speed and facing at the expense of power. IMO of course You could also look at the differences between a back kick and reverse side kick as another example. Don't mean any of this to sound negative BTW, just being realistic! Welcome to MAP Mitch
Thanks Mitch. The differences between the styles don't sound negative at all. Sounds like they just serve different purposes depending on the traditions and practicality in that system's sparring style. I guess the easiest way to know whether a seminar works for me is to simply contact the head instructor if possible. You guys have been a great help. I'll be lingering on the forums to learn more about the technical aspects of TKD.
I hope you get to take part, have a great experience and make some new friends. Let us know how it goes and it's good to have you here Mitch
I can't speak for others, but if you came to one of my seminars, you would be more than welcome.. probibly treated a little bit special by me for stepping out of yor comfort zone TBH - I respect stuff like that. Stuart
Why do you say that? Lets not forget that ALL the heads of the TAGB were once ITF'ers under the UKTA prior to the the TAGB! Sorry.. don't get why you feel the need to put a disclaimer! Stuart
Just because the chap was asking about an ITF seminar nowadays so I was narrowing it down to that. I think you're reading something into it that I didn't mean? If he was asking about TAGB I'd answer within my knowledge of TAGB seminars. TAGB has never tried to hide its origins (that I'm aware of), nor should it. Mitch
Okay.. sorry dude. I just dislike the fact that non-ITF'ers (feel they) have to make some sort of acknowledgement to that! My bugbear perhaps! Me.. I respect yours (and others) opinion, regardless of affiliation! Stuart
And sorry Stuart, I didn't follow where you were quoting from closely enough either. I responded with reference to seminars and you were quoting me with reference to kicks, my bad. Again, I can only say that different people have different ideas, even within orgs. I like an old fashioned ITF/Karate turning kick, but some might see it as odd because I've been influenced by some Enshin who were in turn influenced by some Thai and I've just concentrated on what works for me, still within the ToP. By contrast my Instructor does a very WTF style turning kick and I would never want to be on the end of it. Works for him So I don't have any worry about acknowledging the ITF origins of TAGB at all; at the same time, TAGB is a broad church and I have my own ideas that I'm free to develop within that to some extent at least Mitch
Unless it's a closed seminar, which would be specified to be only for members of the ITF (like the ITF Umpire Course I attended a couple years ago), then sure. From a pragmatic standpoint instructors would want to have as many people as possible attend so they could cover their bottom line, but I've not known any ITF instructor who would turn someone away simply because they're WTF. I've attended seminars where WTF and other non-ITF people attended. No one said boo about it. I know several instructors in the Pennsylvania and New Jersey area (not so much NY, though). One of them usually has in Master Parm Rai around January and Master Wheatley around November of each year. Both of them are very worth training under if possible. Let me know if you want contact information and I'll PM it to you. There are lots of things about ITF and WTF Taekwon-Do that appear similar upon a cursory examination. Once you start studying both, though, it's obvious there are quite a few differences. Turning kicks, side kicks, punching, power generation, stances, stepping, etc. are all different. Pax, Chris
I would definitely like a PM with their contact info is possible. Thank you very much Pax. I'm intrigued by the differences in turning kick, side kick, and movement (steps, footwork) between the two styles. I'd love to train with some ITF head instructors at seminars to expand my horizons. ~ Ben
I tried sending you a PM but the system said you had chosen not to receive them or that you unable to, for some reason. Let me know if there's an off site e-mail address I can send the information to and I'll send it ASAP. Pax, Chris
Hi Chris, Bgajdor1 hasn't made enough posts yet to allow him to receive personal messages. This rule is in place to stop Spammers or similar soliciting business so I hope you understand why it is in place. Unfortunately we don't allow people to publish email addresses etc for similar reasons. The best thing is for Bgajdor1 to just join in more discussions and then he'll get full rights as a MAP member. Sorry for the inconvenience guys, but I hope you understand the reasons behind it. Mitch
