ITF Logo Use

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by StuartA, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Er... my quote was intended as a joke. Maybe you didn't understand it? :confused:
     
  2. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    As one who saw the movie & had mixed reactions to it, because of its raw & raunchy humor, as I saw it with a senior & 2 juniors. The comedy did take place in a TKD school, but not an ITF one. They may have done old stlye ITF forms, but so do many Korean karate schools, along with some that hang WTF flags in them issue KKW BB certs & use Olympic tournament sparring rules. Just look at the poster you included your response, that is not an ITF practice suit. Nothing in the movie indicated the school was an ITF one. They merely did the Chang Hon forms, the 1st Korean forms & were still doing them in their old fashion karate way
     
  3. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I am not that versed in other MAs, but do feel that many MAs have sufferred as a result of commericalism. In fact that is why I think many MMA schools have come on the scene, to fill the void that MAs used to fill, before they became babysitting services. I grew up in an age where kicking was considered fighting like a "girl" (no offense to any female members). As the tely & the cinema started to put out more film with MAs, they became some what of a mystique to the "West". This eventually caused a craze & MA schools started to open up. They lacked the sophisication they do today.

    Over time 2 major things happened (among others). The 1st was the Karate Kid & Ninja Turtle movies. These films had the effect of opening the doors of the MA schools to children. The other thing that occurred over time was the MA insurance industry. With that came safety rules, requirements & equipment. The MA became a business with many watered down instructors opening up schools that have become not much more than babysitting or child discipline centers which got junior to say yes sir & thank you ma am!

    Against this backdrop SK was a Nation torn apart by a devasting civil war that destroyed some 80% of the Country. This of course took place after a brutal occupation by Japan, where the langauge, culture etc was wiped out. So in an attempt to revitalize their national identity, TKD was born. TKD at birth was a triple birth of triplets, seperated at birth. One group, the 1st group was basically karate & grew up independently & maintaining many of the things that they learned at birth, just now calling it Korean karate or the new name of TKD.

    The next group, also karate grew up in the SK Army. They were the 1st ones to use the name TKD. They also were comprised of many talented fighters that had various levels of exposure to other fighting arts that existed at the time. They made TKD into a modern mix of the Arts of that day. This was done in the military gym, the Ohdokwan. Eventually they created the ITF & spread their Chang Hon version around the world. They were led by Gen Choi.

    The last group was the 2nd generation leaders of the original karate schools, Chungdokwan, Jidokwan & Changmookwan. They developed their karate into a martial sport with unique rules unlike what karate was doing to become different & distinct from karate & Japan. They were led by Lee Chong Woo, Uhm Un Gyo & Lee Nam Suk. They in fact did not even use the name TKD until 1965, 72, 73 or for some 1978, opting instead to Tae Soo Do, their original kwan names or a Korean name that described karate like Kwon Bup, Tang Su Do, Su bak etc.

    Now we must remember that SK was a poor country with dire prospects for the future. As a result many Koreans left to go abroad. Some set up MA schools making a good living, as they capitalized on the growth of this fad. SK itself started a TKD program in the colleges, where Universities offered academic degrees in TKD, much like a bachelors degree in sports science. They eventually added graduate programs that granted masters & doctoral degrees in TKD. These graduates were dispatched around the world spreading their versions of TKD, along with Korean culture. I can not think any other Country in history that produced MA teachers in this way. TKD was an actual early export of a Nation, before SamSung, DaeWoo, Kia, Hyundai etc.

    Please do not think of the SK today as it was back then. They are 2 different places in so many ways. It is amazing that they went from an occupied country that sent players to compete in the 1936 Olympics. However you will not find their names in the record books. They were forced to compete under the Japanese flag with Japanese names. It is truly amazing that they hosted their own Olympics just 52 years later, highlighting the new National sport. The SKs also paid for TKD to be a 2nd demonstration sport 4 years later in Spain (1992).

    So TKD has gotten a strong push from many factors. Schools opened all over the place. Since many MA places have become businesses, it is all about the 2 Rs, recruitment & retention. With that, the Art, along with the emphasis on sport, has suffered tremendously. IMO TKD deserves it poor reputation. However it is not because original TKD is not a good Art, as I think it is, but rather because it has been corrupted by so many influences. If one follows the text, they will find it is more than enough of a real MA if it is taught 7 trained that way.
     
  4. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick


    It actually resembles the suit used by 4th Dans of many ITF-style associations here in the UK and abroad (TAGB, NWTKD, ATA, etc). They also practice the forms the way I was taught in the TAGB. Sure, it might not be a school within the actual International Taekwon-do Federation (the producers would most likely be sued), but it is an ITF TKD style school. Or should that be a Chang Hon style school? Anyway, the point is the movie sends up the McDojo phenomenon using an ITF/Chang Hon style TKD school because [I would argue] most McDojos teach this style [at least most of the ones I have come across].
     
  5. Custom Volusia

    Custom Volusia Valued Member

    anyone who thinks that TKD has real credibility with the general public needs to open their eyes. Tell someone you do TKD and most of the time the response is 'but I heard that......is much better! that's what you should be doing' then they will continue to stuff themselves full of deep fried dog doo.
     
  6. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    My dad, who was paying for my TKD lessons, told me I could not kick if I got into a fight with one person. If it was two then he was fine with it. But he considered using your feet cheap...

    Again this is the guy who was PAYING for me to take lessons in an art known for its kicking.

    To be clear, btw, I do think TKD is a great art. I was talking about its perception in the martial arts world and not whether or not it was useful or not. I've actually known many people who have defended themselves using TKD. I've only known one where it totally failed for them (and he was sucker punched). But a lot of it had to do with the fact that they were training period. They actually knew how to throw a punch or kick that would drop someone. None of the encounters were extended Bloodsport affairs...
     
  7. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Well this may be going off on a tangent here, but maybe the confusion is what one thinks TKD, ITF or Chang Hon style is. To me I follow the book, as close as i can. The book(s) of course is the one(s) writtne by ITF founder, whose pen name is Chang Hon, who also named his art TKD. Following these instructions is what I think makes someone Chang Hon or ITF. (I know ITF is an org & not a style.) At some point when one deviates to far from these directions they are no longer doing what the directions directed. If you get my point. So I would not look at these break away groups as ITF or Chang Hon. There has been a world of changes & more changes, updates & more updates to the standard & requirements of his system.
    (I make no claim that his system is better, but certainly if one is not following his final 2002 version, an arguement can be made they are not doing his system, depending of course on how much of his direction they are disregarding.)
    It has been my experience that schools that do not have a corresponding textbook seem to be more in line with a mcdojo. Now I am not talking about a school's or groups training guide, but a comprehensive textbook. Without such a guide, one is forced to rely on almost entirely on the talent, knowledge & experience of those guiding you. I know of no subject matter on any level, academic or otherwise that does not have a text. When I see MA schools that operate without one, I for one find a link to mcdojoism!

    A final point is that I think the number of schools calling themselves WTF far outweigh or outnumber the so called ITF ones. ITF has not been in SK since 1972. It has always been referred to as a private organization of one man. Its syllabus was removed from the Korean Army in 1975. All the TKD dojangs in SK teach a sport. They are controled by some form of the SK government. Their academic universities that award college degrees in TKD teach the Kukki style of TKD, governed by the KKW. So other than following Olympic sparring rules, I don't know what makes a WTF school.

    I do know more students of TKD think of themselves as WTF, rather than ITF. Other than hanging a WTF flag, wearing a v-neck dobok, I don't know how they classify themselves as WTF. In fact, some of these schools do the ITF forms. So go figure! I have noticed that many of these schools don't have a text to follow. Some are not even aware the KKW has a textbook, whic is very good btw. So no book to me means less techniques to learn, less help in learning them, which over time may result in a more watered down activity. This is only natural, only common sense & not limited to any group or style. if you run the numbers I think you will see more sp called WTF schools than so called ITF schools, or real ITF schools for that matter. The numbers to me clearly indicate a different result for me, than your point of view
     
  8. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    No arguement from me. I for one think that TKD deserves its poor reputation. However it is not TKD, but what it has evolved into AND how it is taught & trained. TKD was a good MA that came from karate & was developed in the Korean Army for SD. It was a mix of the fighting sytems that the soldiers had been exposed to. However over the years another group outside of the Army developed a sport that they didn't even call TKD till between 10 & 23 years later. While the sports rules were new, the base was still karate. However the emphasis on the sport took away from & to an extent covered the roots, which btw was the purpose. While they were successful in making a new sport, even gaining Olympic status, some things suffered. In addition, colleges started graduating young students with a 4 year bachelors degree & a 4th dan BB, calling them masters.
    Why does one go to college? the reasons are many, but basically for an education that will give someone a career. Now maybe you can learn enough knowledge in a 4 year collge dergee in sports science, but I am not sure if that is the best way to make a MA master! Does anyone?
    So these graduates open a school & teach a sport. In order to make money they must recruit & retain. I am also sure that for me, this is not the kind of school I want to learn a MA for SD in! Do you?

    There are so many reasons why MA schools today are so watered down. These reasons are probably some of the reasons why MMA have come to fill the void. Since we often hear that TKD is the world's most popular MA, does it surprise one to see why so many watered down MA schools are calling themselves TKD? Just look at the numbers (No such thing as bad student, only bad instructors)
     
  9. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    Ha ha....don't kid yourself. Already there are MMA schools where you go once or twice a week. Throw some combos. Work armbar and sweeps a couple of times. Hit the bag a bit. Then call it good after an hour.

    Not that there is anything really wrong with that. My friend, who is a TKD blackbelt, now does a class just like that. He acknowledges that they don't work on grappling enough/etc. And he says he isn't really challenged by a lot of the other people in class when they do stand-up sparring. But he goes there because it is close to his house and his wife doesn't complain because he isn't gone too long.

    In fact this type of class is exactly what the public wants. They want to go someplace after work, turn their brain off, get a bit of exercise, then go home. Or drop little Johnny off and have him get some exercise while you go to the coffee shop and relax a bit. If little Johnny has a black eye, bloody nose, they will freak.

    Yes those of us on the board are more obsessive. We want to work out more, etc. Lay awake thinking of martial arts theory. But most of the rest of the world 'has a life' and thinks the time we devote to this stuff is insane.

    :)
     
  10. mattsylvester

    mattsylvester One proud daddy!

    HI all,

    On the uniform side of things, when I was running the PMA org we agreed on the following uniforms.

    Kup/Kyu - White top, Black bottoms
    Black Belt - Black Uniform
    Instructor - Black top, white bottoms.

    This meant that the instructor always stood out from the crowd. Obviously if there were a lot of instructors present, then students were spoilt for choice as to who they could go and speak to. It worked well and we certainly stood out. The colours were chosen because they matched the logo.

    Now we have coloured t-shirts, black bottoms and trainers (not belts) for Kyu/Kup, Black t-shirts for black and 'Instructor' on the right breast and back of Instructors (again, black t-shirts).

    As with Aaron etc, the title is something to aim for, plus it also gives the message that 'just because you're a black belt, it doesn't mean you can teach.' Instructor is something that people work towards with us, rather than just being able to instruct when they reach black belt. They have to earn it through doing a course, first aid etc. To those who are bound to ask for further details - No, I won't list everything they have to do, work out your own programme :)
     
  11. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    No I realize that. It is just that since the reputation of MAs has sufferred over the years, it make sense that TKD'd reputation would suffer tremendously, as they are suppossedly the bigger group. Couple that with the big push that SK does with TKD as an academic sports education program etc, it is easy to see why.
    Now my point was that it seems to me that MMAs have to some extent filled the void. That does not mean that there are not weak MMAs schools, or some MMAs that are approaching slowly to Mcdojo status. To me that is just common sense. When one opens a "business" generally speaking they do so to make money, thats what businesses do, don't they? When they don't, they close don't they? Unless they qualify for some government bailout!
    So once any MA school opens or operates as a "business" certain compromises must be made to insure needed revenue flow. Often these compromises weaken the Art. To me that is the inherent confilct that money causes when it is mixed with the MAs. I am sure that over the passage of time, this conflict with affect the MMAs, although I sincerely hope that is not the case, imo common sense dictates otherwise.
     
  12. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    I'm disapointed no one commented on my "Don't Belive The Hype" rewrite... that took all of 10 minutes and two glasses of wine :mad:

    View Here

    :evil:
     
  13. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I saw it and listened to it at least twice.:happy:
     
  14. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Ah! But did you rap along with the customised lyrics? :rolleyes:
     
  15. Custom Volusia

    Custom Volusia Valued Member

    ahhh...I missed out on responding to the troll before the other thread got closed....dang.
     
  16. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Sing/rap? Best if I don't. My wife has a restraining order on me stopping me singing.:rolleyes:
     
  17. Tezzer

    Tezzer Banned Banned

    Stu mate I think the reason no one commented is cos like me they found it a bit embarrassing :)

    I'm just trying to imagine the response I would had got if I'd posted that? :thinking:
     
  18. Tezzer

    Tezzer Banned Banned

    LOl that really is pathetic mate.

    LMAO @ "I listened to it twice".
     
  19. Tezzer

    Tezzer Banned Banned


    Oh dear never mind. At least youve explained yourself now :rolleyes:

    I'm just trying tio imaigne what you would have said if I'd posted that.

    Pretty silly stuff really wit hsome offensive content. Still, I suppose if you put a smiley here and there that makes it ok :cool::rolleyes:
     
  20. Tezzer

    Tezzer Banned Banned

    Moosey/Mods

    Mate could you please lock this thread.

    I susepct mischief is afoot.
     

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