Israel or Palestine- who's the 'bad' guy?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by ronki23, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    Hi, i'm doing an assignment on Contemporary Business Issues called 'Imperatives of the State'
    I am writing about how the oil prices and wars have increased thanks to the conflicts in the Middle East- just need a bit of clarification on the History (go down to red text for actual question):

    Arab-Israeli-Western relations

    *1800s-The number of Jews living in Palestine gradually increases thanks to a combination of the modern World Map being established by (British?) Empire and easier methods of transport- Jews go there as Israel is Holy to them and because there has been an increasing number of attacks on them.

    *1916-Ottoman Empire's Control of Palestine now becomes British

    *1933 ARAMCO founded between Saudi Arabia and the USA


    *1947- Jews are told by the British to live in/around Palestine as they want to keep away from Germans and Soviets. They legally purchase land from the Arabs. Until this point all Arabs in Palestine are either Jordanians or Syrians-not Palestinians

    *1948- Arabs expel Jews living in neighbouring countries as more and more live with Muslims and the latter can't share Jerusalem. War between them (Egypt,Syria,Transjordan,Iraq and volunteers from other Muslim states) and the Jews (backed by the USA financially) erupts. The latter win and Palestine becomes Israel. This was caused by the Arabs' expulsion of Jews

    *Retribution of Operations (1951-1955) and Suez War (1956)

    *1967- Six Day War- same armies again (minus Iraq) and Israel wins this too. This time the Israelis were to blame to retaliate against sabre-rattling by Egyptians. This is when Muslims call the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosqye Holy (before its Holyness was up for debate). 9 wars follow and oil prices increase

    *1979-Israel and Egypt (former enemy) makes peace
    *1994-Israel and Jordan make peace

    Attacks on the West

    *1988-Al Qaeda established with Bin Laden being the figurehead
    *1990-Gulf War after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait (2 year war)
    *1990-Bin Laden and Saudi Royal Family break relations
    *1993- WTC bombing in 1993 with Ramzi Yousef-not Al Qaeda at the time but still attacked USA for support of Israel
    *1996- Osama bin Laden issues fatwa against USA for supporting Israel and still being in Saudi Arabia even after Iraq war was finished (as a Muslim he found it insulting)
    *1998- Bomb Blasts on US Embassies by Al Qaeda members-Al Qaeda comes into spotlight
    *2001- 9/11 organised by Khalid Shiekh Mohammed- Uncle and financier to Ramzi Yousef and part of Al Qaeda
    *2001-present: War in Afghanistan to find Osama bin Laden (in cohorts with Taliban)-bin Laden escapes but Taliban openly assisted Al Qaeda
    *2003-present: Second War in Iraq-many Al Qaeda members in Iraq but no link to any attacks from Al Qaeda

    Who is to Blame?

    If Jews legally bought the land and did not destroy or rebuild on the existing Muslim sights, why were there continuing wars against Israel? Who started them and (if both did), why do both sides continue to act like this?

    I have also read that both Arabs from other countries AND Al Qaeda have no care for the Palestinian people: in 1970 Jordan massacred many Palestinian Muslims and other countries have kicked them out. Yet there is still a threat of war if the Temple is rebuilt?

    I also hear Al Qaeda and most terrorists do not care about them-is there proof in this bit? If this is true, then it must mean they are truly evil people. I assume they use this to rally people to their 'jihad' and why it has happened in non-Arabic Muslim countries like Pakistan,Nigeria,Somalia,Sudan,etc. since they have border disputes with their non-Muslim neighbours.

    I want to compare Chevron (a US oil company) to Israel's Modiin and how wars have affected them so:

    -Who do you think is the 'bad' guy in the Arab-Israeli wars
    -Why do Arabs say they care about Palestinians and complain about Jews yet they themselves kicked them out
    -True intentions of the extremists?
    -How do you think oil prices have been affected
     
  2. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Neither and both is the truth.
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I don't know....therefore aliens

    It is question that is very hard to grasp fully, and Sifu Ben hit it as honestly as I could
     
  4. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    neither are bad guys and both to blame?

    or

    both are bad guys and neither to blame?

    What I don't understand is why the likes of Osama use Palestine as a ruse to rally people to their cause and follows suit with Pakistan (dispute with India),Nigeria (Boko Haram hates Christian Nigerians) and Somalia (Al Shabaab hates non Muslims).
    ^what did Osama's Al Qaeda really want??

    Do the Arabs themselves not care of Palestine?I was quite shocked reading about Jordan's massacre. If they don't care, why don't the Jews rebuild the Temple-unless it's the land they care of (but really-it wasn't even considered Holy until 1967 as many debated that Muhammed Spiritually went there).
    ^i'm still confused about it as many of my non-Palestinian Muslim friends go around posting articles of how the Jews are wrong and how they are outraged by Israel.


    The war in the Middle East is the reason of all these extremists' attacks-whether they care or not for the people, the illiterate idiots who blow their children up or fly planes into buildings are angered with the West for helping the 'evil' Jews.

    I thought the solution would be an Isralestine but it obviously won't work- India, Nigeria, Sudan and Somalia are examples of conflict of Islam and other religions outside Israel.

    How has it affected US and Israel's economy? I assume the increase in oil prices is part of it but the Iraq war (if we got oil out of it) and (to a lesser extent) Libya war should have made it cheaper? I doubt that though-in the last 6 years prices have skyrocketed in the UK
     
  5. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Most of what you pay for petrol in the UK is tax, and Israel isn't a major oil producing nation, so it's a non issue.
    That was the original plan in 1948, the Arabs wouldn't go for it.
    Uniting people against infidels in support of your political aims is a tried and tested tactic throughout history. Sala ad-Din used it to justify the expansion of his territories in the run up to the third crusade, which in turn was a perfect example of this as well.
     
  6. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    I know American oil prices have changed from the wars, don't see the point in talking about Arab countries' oil as it won't change from war- would talk about Israel and its economy as that'd have oil in the equation and Arab countries won't give them any oil so Israel has to find it elsewhere

    But what was OBL's actual aim? My Christian Nigerian friend says mainly illiterates join Muslim extremists- makes sense because I don't see what sane person would blow up their own son/daughter against someone else just because they help a country fight land they have never even visited
     
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Doesn't OBL want all non-muslims off muslim soil and the eventual islamification of the entire world?
    Or something like that anyway. Moon on a stick if you ask me.
     
  8. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Fairly well laid out on Wikipedia
    Basically, as with most extremists, he pretty much just hated everyone who didn't think like him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2012
  9. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    Do the Arabs still care about the Temple Mount even if they don't care about the people?

    I also hear of British-Zionist conflicts during WWII-that doesn't sound too good on the Jews side,especially as the latter were helped by the USA. Still, if they were fighting for their rights that was still more acceptable than flying planes into towers full of civilians.
    What do you think of the British-Zionist conflict as it overcomplicates things

    EDIT: THIS OVERCOMPLICATES THINGS


    http://www.youtube.com/v/I73UtRRSbqg&hl=en_US&feature

    http://www.youtube.com/v/9oeB3QhX2RI&hl=en_US&feature

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...t_zionism.html


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism
    http://www.nkusa.org/
    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

    http://www.youtube.com/v/mR-jMY9e5wI&hl=en_US&feature

    http://www.arabsforisrael.com/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2012
  10. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    Look, I want views/who started what and why, for my assignments on how USA and Israel have been affected when it comes to a mutual industry (oil) the affected oil prices,economy problems, terrorist attacks,etc. USA has had oil flucatuations from the wars and Israel wasn't going to get any oil from Arabs
     
  11. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Then you'd be better served reading books and academic journals than asking on a martial arts forum don't you think? Also the whys and wherefores are not hugely relevant to the subject of your essay.
     
  12. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Also will you PLEASE stop posting the same Youtube videos time and again in your threads.
     
  13. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    haha-I do that when I don't get a reply-dw I won't do it anymore
     
  14. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    It seems to me that:

    The Jews of Israel legally got to Israel but only after paying for the land and fighting for their rights (against the people who pioneered for them-the British)

    Palestinians and other Arabs initiated the first War

    Israel has continued fighting and seizing territories

    Various Palestinians blowing themselves/their children up has caused peace processes to stutter

    Today in Syria and Yemen I hope that their governments get overthrown because for years their terrible human rights record AND the fact they were key aggressors in Arab-Israeli wars shows their ideology has a screw loose

    Al Qaeda has used the 'plight of Islam' as a way of rallying muhajideen:

    Palestinians, Pakistanis (dispute with the 'evil' Indians over Kashmir and land),Bangladeshis (same), Somalis,pro-Taliban Afghans,Syrians and Yemenis,etc.

    Osama bin Laden is the Revolver Ocelot of the story-using others' plight for his own needs

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Both sides are guilty in my book. I'm not a fan of Israel but the violence would end in a moment if Hammas would agree to let Israel exist. I think if Israel somehow disappeared as a state the middle east would still erupt in warfare between the muslim states.

    I've said it before that the Arab league couldn't find water if they fell out of a boat they are so dysfunctional. If they didn't have the Israeli's to focus their hatred on, there would just be warfare between the states and different forms of islamists.

    As far as the temple being rebuilt, if the Dome of the Rock were to be threatened, it would start world war three....
     
  16. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Ronki, what academic works have you read on the settlement patterns of the region, the history of Arab-Isreali tensions/conflict and the economic effect of Middle Eastern instability. While the discussions generated on MAP can be interesting, it would seem that the above are places where you should start gathering info for a paper.

    Don't know your age--is this paper meant to be at the university level, graduate or undergraduate?
     
  17. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    It's at undergraduate level-my hate for ignorance/dislike of Jews and Americans (symphasisers of OBL) should be put to use so i'm trying to do an assignment on Israel's conflict as a paper titled 'Human Rights and Imperatives of the State'

    We're meant to compare two companies in two different countries under different systems; naturally as both the USA and Israel have oil companies i'm comparing them as it also ties into their economies' performance as well

    (atm looking at GDP growth affected post Israel and at key dates e.g. 1967 oil embargo, 1991 Gulf War, 9/11, Afghanistan,Iraq)

    Since Israel has human rights issues and DON'T get much (if any) oil from the Arabs, i'll compare them to the USA's oil economy and how they've been managing,etc. Plus it makes sense to use the USA and Israel as they're both targets of extremists.

    So far only looked through Google and Wikipedia but only started

    Will look at Mintel/Keynote to find reports of Chevron but am not sure if it'll be easy to find information on Modiin Energy
     
  18. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    I haven't checked this thread in a while but here's a new question:

    If Israel and Iran go to war, who's side would the Arabs be on?

    Israel may have Jews who have engulfed the land of Palestine but as many have said before, Palestinians are a pawn in the game. Israel conquered Jerusalem but didn't change the Dome of the Rock as they wanted to keep the peace AND today all faiths may go into Jerusalem thanks to Israeli occupation (not saying Palestinians disallowed it but Israel allows all entry)

    Arabs hate Persians- two different races and their beliefs are different.

    Shia Islam is limited to Iran if you are only counting whole countries- Bahrain,Iraq and Turkey have Shias too and there are also Yemenis and Syrians who are Sunnis but friends of Iran

    Sunnis exist as the majority in: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Oman (ok they're Ibadi but side with Sunnis), Egypt,Algeria,Libya,Morroco,Tunisia,Somalia,Djibouti,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Indonesia,Jordan,Lebanon,Azerbaijan,Tajikistan,Afghanistan

    and are aplenty in: Eritrea,Ethiopia,Kazakhstan,India,Nigeria,Sudan,Bosnia,Serbia and Montenegro

    Realistically Iran's support would only be from parts of Afghanistan/Iraq, Bahrain, Turkey, parts of Syria/Yemen/Egypt and one non Muslim country: North Korea.

    Israel would be supported by (in theory): Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Oman (ok they're Ibadi but side with Sunnis), Algeria,Morroco,Tunisia,Somalia,Djibouti,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Indonesia,Jordan,Lebanon,Azerbaijan,Tajikistan,Bosnia,Kosovo,Serbia,Montenegro,Romania,Bulgaria,Malta,Cyprus,Poland,Latvia,Lithuania,Japan,North Korea,The European Union, USA and Canada

    and (parts of)Afghanistan,Egypt,Iraq and Libya

    I doubt Russia and China would want to destroy their economies by helping Iran- China's biggest trading partners are India,Japan and the USA and Russia has all of Eastern Europe (used to be part of its Empire) on its doorstep.

    I'm sure Arabs hate Persian Shias more than Israel-especially if Israel has made peace with Egypt,Jordan and (pretty much) Saudi Arabia
     
  19. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    This isn't true, in my opinion.
    But this most certainly is. Oh boy, is it true.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
  20. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    There are no winners, no good guys in that conflict. As per usual the civilians/children cop it the worst. When starving children are seen as expendable, an unfortunate side effect of the latest political handshake, then yeah, its hard to see any good with either side including the blind eye from allies! you dont have to be a tunnel visioned pacifist to see that.
    There are international law issues, human rights issues, that are ignored. thats a fact.

    With Iran, people should realise that there are a great number of instilations that would need to be taken out. Ofcourse that comes across as seemingly just a building or two getting bombed to some. Even a couple of Nuclear instalations getting bombed would be quite devastating to the population (civs/children) let alone a number close to "80"

    80 associated instalations..

    Another small problem, Iran will let off everything they have in their arsenal, has it crossed anyones mind that they dont need nuclear to bomb the crap out of their attackers.
    Russia has given Iran just as much missile defense systems as U.S has given Israel, and it is no secret that the Russians are a step ahead in this area of tech.
    Drones etc they are not just the property of the U.S, they are yesterdays technology lol.
    The list goes on.

    Israel may have taken out a few instalations in a different part of the region recently, but it just isnt going to be that easy with Iran.
    Hasnt Iran let the inspectors in anyway? The issue seems to be that Iran isnt seen as "strictly" keeping to building for energy, here we go again, "rumours" of wmd.

    Im all for the international community stepping in when it see's a problem in a country/region, as long as it is based on substantiated fact and it works without bias in order to enforce human rights and international law..
     

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