Is Yang Tai Chi exercise or martial art?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by RAB, Apr 21, 2004.

  1. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    If a teacher isn't able to teach at least the basics of freestyle push hands, san sao and da lu, there's no way they can pretend to teach the martial side of tai chi.
     
  2. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    No Offense to TCC Practitioners

    But it seems that since TCC has fallen so much out of use as martial art that instead of calling it TCC (grand ultimate fist or whatever), they should give it another name.

    Like Chen Village Boxing or something like that.

    Because it sure doesn't seem to be TCC anymore.
     
  3. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    TJQ is a martial art !

    Do not confuse the »Tai Chi Exercise« and »Taiji Quan«! :D Chinese government made a »Simplified« (24 postures)and »Standard« (88 postures) Taijiquan and others forms (48 postures, 42 postures,..) as exercises for chinese people. :Angel: They are not a martial art but exercises that was developed from a martial art! :woo:

    The TJQ as a martial art was preserved only by the »traditional/ortodox« (Yang) lineages. Only few disciples of Yang Cheng Fu transmited the Yang TJQ martial art aspect, the main disciples were: Fu Zhong Wen, Chen Wei Ming, Yang Sau Chung and Tung Ying Chieh. :love:

    xingyiboxer - Yang family Grandson Yang Jun teach also TJQ fighting applications. As I know he shows the martial applications of the postures, but the fighting is not practiced. I don't know why the Yang family (Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Zhen Guo) teach the TJQ mainly as a health exercise? :confused: Some said that they didn't studied enought with their father and the didn't learned the whole martial art and the only »son/disciple« of YCF is Yang Sau Chung. :cry:

    TJQ is stil a grand ultimate fist, but have I said the »Tai Chi« exercise is not Taijiquan! :love:
     
  4. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    "I don't know why the Yang family (Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Zhen Guo) teach the TJQ mainly as a health exercise? Some said that they didn't studied enought with their father and the didn't learned the whole martial art and the only »son/disciple« of YCF is Yang Sau Chung."

    Well YZD was very young when his father died. And AFAIK there was a lot of government pressureon him to teach a certain way.

    YSC of course got out to Hong Kong. But how much he had, or more relevant how much he decided to teach isopen to question.
     
  5. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    Today the main Yang family master for the TJQ spreading is YZD (with YJ). The TJQ style of others two his brothers (YZJ and YZG) is almost the same. My opinion is that there is more "martial art" outside the Yang family than inside it. Yes, the Yang family style has some martial art inside but too little to be a martial art - more than the Standard and Simplified Taijiquan, but less than others "traditional/ortodox" lineages (outside the Yang family): Fu (Zhong Wen), Tung (Ying Chieh), Yang (Sau Chung). Maybe only the daughters of YSC (inside the Yang family) are preserving the Yang (Cheng Fu) Style.

    YSC teached the TJQ only at his school (I think that it was in Hong Kong) and he was not interested for spreading the TJQ to the world. So he had only few disceples and also his disceples do not teach the TJQ too openly. Maybe only Vincent Chu are teaching enought openly of the YSC linesges!

    Also are very good for the preserving of the martial arts of Yang Sytle Taijiquan the lineages that are teaching the Sao Shou Form (Two-Person Fighting Form): Tian Zhao Lin, Hsiung Yang Ho, Chang Yiu Chun (?) and (of course) Yang Sau Chung.
     
  6. gt3

    gt3 Member

    I have books with photographs of Yang Cheng-Fu performing the martial applications of his Yang style form on people. Yang Cheng-Fu also learned the art from his family who taught only the real martial arts focused forms, however Yang Cheng-Fu also changed the form to be easier for the masses to learn. Then you take Cheng Man Ching, who was a student of Yang Cheng-Fu, who took that already modified form and modifed it even more and shortened it down to 37 moves. Since they both still called it "yang style" people get confused! The problem here is that they're really nested styles (styles within styles):

    1) Yang Lu Chan Yang style (100% martial)
    2) Yang Cheng Fu Yang style (50% martial)
    3) Cheng Man Ching Yang style (0% martial)

    Hence the demise of tai chi chuan (yang style): http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/demise.html

    Yang Cheng Fu himself said that if anyone were to modify the form anymore than he already has then it would ruin it, and people tried and prooved it.

    The Yang Lu Chan form is still taught, by erle montaigue and i'm not sure who else. But even erle who favors the YLC form says you should learn the YCF form first. Remember a large percent of sucessful fighting ability is in your own physical/mental attributes, not just technique, and the YCF form is a great foundation for this regardless if people think its watered down or not.

    If you don't trust that the yang lu chan form being taught is 'authentic' then maybe go head and learn chen or sun style tai chi, but its still a good idea to learn the yang cheng fu long form regardless. It might just be me but i think health/happiness is far more important than fighting skills. Health is a constantly important thing and you may only get in one or two fights in your lifetime. Of course, self defense these days usually means combatting stress and fatigue, the YCF form in this sense can be considered one of the most EFFECTIVE forms of all time. Also never forget that above all tai chi is a "training method" you're moving slow in order to train your muscles to fire in the proper sequence and with supreme balance, not to mention training the mind to be calm, clear and alert, this mental aspect is MORE important than physical training both in daily life and in fighting. The YCF form is nothing but useful.

    You have to really decide if your goal is to become a great fighter or to simply learn an entire 'art form' If you're goin to learn an art form you need to have the complete curriculum. IMHO learning tai chi soley for self defense is kinda silly because it takes at least a decade to become decent at fighting with it and the only logical reason you'd take this long route is if you planned on fightin other internal martial artists, but why would you ever do that? by that level of training you'd be one mellow, peaceful dood. If you just wanna learn to "kick ass" then learn some muay thai and grappling.

    The funny thing is most people who get into the martial arts originally just want to learn to be a master and kick some ass, its all ego based then, BUT by the time they reach that point of mastery (if ever) they have lost their desire to fulfill their ego's! Thats the beauty of the martial arts, you end up learning whats imporant and it attracts people who really need a change
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2004
  7. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    The Erle's skill is not equivalent to even one finger of Chen Man Ching! :woo: CMC was one of the best Yang Style masters (surely one of the top 20 ever), meanwhile EM is not known if he is in the top 100! :love:
    Yang Cheng Fu was a martial artist and he was one of the best Yang Style masters (surely on of the top 5 ever). :Angel: He didn't watered down Taijiquan how some unjustifiedly affirm, but his "authentic" Yang Taijiquan was (and is) a Martial Art and not a health exercise (when we doing the form we must imagine how we fight with an opponent and the movements must be martialy applicable). :)
     
  8. gt3

    gt3 Member

    could be wrong, could be right

    In many ways we're all accused of doing that which we argue against.. taking only what we've heard and assuming its true and spreading the information around so that it goes from Truth-to-WTF.

    I have never met YLC or YCF or CMC so anything I say about them i know could be true, partly true, or totally false. Hopefully most people will remember this when they hear or speak of things they truely don't know about. The true "watered-down" things are the stories we tell!

    It is our responsibility to transmit things as accurately and unbiasedly as possible so that future generations can get the truth and we're lucky enough that its not some 'ancient chinese secret' anymore and we have the mediums for which to record the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

    to know is to know you don't know
     
  9. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    The Greater Problem

    The greater problem is that people get all wrapped up in a lot of things about the martial arts.

    They elevate things way beyond what they are, and get wrapped up in the myths surrounding martial arts rather than actually practicing.

    They give teachers much more credence than they actually deserve. Teachers are just martial arts practitioners and nothing more.

    So there are a lot of people who say you have to wait lots of years, assign these Yang guys much more credence as martial artists than they deserve based on myths and hype.

    Does it really work? Can you defend yourself with taiji? Can you actually win a fight with taiji? That's what's important, not your lineage or whatever.

    Too few people these days actually fight in chinese martial arts and go to tournaments, etc. Too few teachers practice applications in realistic scenarios. That's the bigger problem.

    You hardly ever run into those types of issues with other martial arts. Judo, jujitsu, karate, etc., most peole are always practicing with other people, sparring, and testing their skills.

    Whatever. This whole debate is tiring. Making people jump through hoops to get to the real applications of their martial art is a joke.
     
  10. gt3

    gt3 Member

    who will be the legendary martial art "fighters" of the 21st century?

    Lineage isnt the most important thing when it comes down to your own skill, which is the ulimate importance, however it doesn't mean its completely unimportant. It's still important to respect the creators of these arts who spent lifetimes devoted to them. For without them we wouldn't have it. People do this with a lot of things, most american's dont know the history of almost anything important to them like holiday meanings, founding fathers' names, even in the computer world most people don't know the genius men who created half of the stuff they use everyday, and this was all THIS century. It's kind of selfish to abandon the past. But we also live in a time when people don't respect senior members of their own family, we just throw them in 'homes' and consider them useless. Put yourself in their shoes. Now of course obsessing over lineage and using it as a crutch to not practice is stupid, of course. But again we must seek balance in all things.

    Theres also a moral issue here. Today people don't get in real fights a millionth as much as they did 100+ years ago. Health is more important to people than self defense these days. Self defense is still a good thing to know of course, for those rare occasions and for your own confidence.

    The creator of the Sun style of taiji, who was a great fighter, wouldn't teach anyone who came to him wanting to learn how to fight! He said "if you want to fight, go get a gun".

    The fact is competitions have rules, even the "reality" ones like the UFC. such as not being able to strike the back of the head, bite, eye gouge, purposely hit the groin.. Taiji fighters dont have rules and ultimately they don't have techniques, they fight more like animals, animals don't have techniques. Taiji fighters also ONLY defend, they never attack someone first. Its pure self defense. So all these people who train (in their schools) to become good fighters are kind of a joke because they're not actually going out and fighting, NOT THAT THEY SHOULD BE. Martial arts were invented by pragmatic men who knew they'd have to defend themselves all of the time so the martial arts aspect was the most important.

    But "martial arts" means more than just fighting. It's a philosophy, an exercise, an art, a meditation and a way of life. Different people take different meanings out of it. Some take all the meanings and some don't get any of the meanings and end up "brawlers" purposely getting into fights in mixed martial arts competitions and in real life. But thats ego related.

    Even if you only practice taiji with "exercise" in mind thats totally fine, because its your choice and you're still getting benefits. Theres room for purists and "new agers" because if you think about it, most people these days get into the martial arts for seemingly "silly" reasons at first. They watch movies like "Blood sport" or something and think they're going to learn to break bricks and enter kumites, but thats sometimes a good thing because it motivates them to try martial arts, then when they see what they're really about they end up liking it. For some reason "flash" draws people in who otherwise might not have been drawn in. This is also apparrent in the computer "hacker" community. Most people saw the majorly fictional movie "hackers" and thought it'd be cool, but once they found out what hacking really is (tedius and mostly boring computer programming) they either quit, converted to the truth or remained in the fantasy world. The point is a lot of them did convert so its not a bad thing that we have people ending up at the truth via a "silly" initiation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2004
  11. xingyiboxer

    xingyiboxer New Member

    Yep

    You got that right. Taiji and its ilk take way too much time ... damn those guys must have spent all day training in the old days.
     
  12. HK Pedestrian

    HK Pedestrian New Member

    The old T'ai Chi family members would start training age 6 or so and train every day all day for the next 20 years, then they would teach. For them, it was a full time job. The living members of the Chen, Yang and Wu families had to learn that way, too. My Sifu is Eddie Wu, the great grandson of Wu Chien-ch'uan. He is the oldest son of the oldest son of the oldest son of Wu Chien-ch'uan, to boot. They were really hard on him as a kid, if you were to train a kid that way in the West today, you would be put in jail for child abuse. The good news is that nobody can touch him, martially. It is in his bones. Also, he will be just as good a fighter (if not better) in his 60s and 70s as he is now. Not many other styles can promise that! When I see some Western hack who started when they were 40 and trained a couple hours a week for 5 years calling themselves a "master" it makes me laugh. So, yeah, real T'ai Chi takes a long time to learn (if you even can learn it), but it has some advantages that make it worthwhile to some of us.

    BTW, there are instances where you have to attack first with T'ai Chi. Say the other guy starts to pull a weapon, I'm not going to give him the time to use it if I can stop him first. Also, suppose a pedophile is pulling a little kid into their car, or a crack head is stealing an old lady's purse, or a redneck biker is slapping a defenceless woman around... In those sorts of instances sometimes you have to take the initiative. We train interventions for stopping opponents cold, even if they aren't attacking us.
     
  13. gt3

    gt3 Member

    TW, there are instances where you have to attack first with T'ai Chi. Say the other guy starts to pull a weapon, I'm not going to give him the time to use it if I can stop him first. Also, suppose a pedophile is pulling a little kid into their car, or a crack head is stealing an old lady's purse, or a redneck biker is slapping a defenceless woman around... In those sorts of instances sometimes you have to take the initiative. We train interventions for stopping opponents cold, even if they aren't attacking us.

    Of course! but those instances are considered attacking, its the "intent". Taiji is about 'doing onto others before they do it to you', but never starting a fight or initializing it in anyway. This really requires true courage and ego control
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2004
  14. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    I agree with that. In all those examples, the attack has been made by the other person - not directed at you, but they have still attacked first.

    I just want to point something out though - taiji is a weapon so can be used in many ways. There is also no tradition of ethics to say taiji should only be a defensive art - the reactiveness of the art is simply a part of the fighting strategy, not out of some noble philosophy of not harming others if you have the chance.

    Many taiji masters are known to have been cruel, harsh and violent - and that's towards their students! simply because taiji looks soft and has been connected with taoism by some doesn't mean it has a passive/non-violent philosophy behind it.
     
  15. HK Pedestrian

    HK Pedestrian New Member

    Ah yes, I'll agree with both of you, absolutely.

    Some of the old timers were known to seem harsh indeed, Yang Pan-hou, Yang Shao-hou were famous for that. Interestingly, members of the Wu family learned from both of those instructors, so there are many stories of apparent violence told in our tradition. As well, there are stories told of my teacher's family members fighting a lot when they were younger. During the war they moved from Shanghai to Hong Kong, where northerners weren't appreciated so much, so there were many opportunities to defend themselves.

    The stories do qualify the positioning, though, for the most part. That is why I say "seem" and "apparent." In those days it was seen very much as a teaching method, "skillful means" for an instructor to weed out students who weren't going to be able to study the art at a high level yet. Most people have something else to learn before they can really learn T'ai Chi Ch'uan the old-fashioned way. They would kick around their students in order that the students would be less likely to "graduate themselves" and think that they had something that they hadn't. A teacher would go to jail, these days, for teaching that way, of course. A good student would be challenged by being shown something they didn't understand so unequivocally and strive to improve, a part timer would quit.

    Nobody is perfect, so it is possible that the harshness was exacerbated by the environment and the culture to what we would consider excess, but the art was transmitted to the present day, which is what they old timers were after.
     
  16. gt3

    gt3 Member

    yeah they were a LOT harsher on their students. But since teachers arent like that these days the combat thing isn't just have to be a teachers intent, it has to be YOUR intent. The question is how can you simulate that level of training? its unlikely that you'll be able to talk your teacher abusing you, not that anyone would. But how can any of us expect to be as good as the masters of old if we don't train as seriously? Chen Xiaowang used to practice his long forms 30 times a day everyday. Of course theres a fine line between "conditioning" and "set backs" (by injuries, overtraining, etc) :cool:
     

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