Is weight lifting benefical for karate?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Cmorgan, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. I agree Kuma, supplementary exercises to build strength and flexibility in the joints, ligaments & tendons is necessary from day one. :)


    Osu!
     
  2. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    I disagree obviously. Most people if they ever join a gym go in, sit on the machines, lift weight that is way too light, get no results and quit. This has nothing to do with modern science.
     
  3. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    That just isn't true. In terms of strength and lifts, the guys in modern strongman competitions would leave the likes of Eugene Sandow in the dust:

    [​IMG]

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    As would the average bodybuilder in the IFBB:

    [​IMG]

    And it isn't just the development of juice.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2011
  4. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Agree 100%, I had a chishi in my hands first week of classes as a white belt. There is no sound reason to wait. Push-ups are weight training. Is there a dojo in the world that has their students wait until 2nd kyu to do push-ups?
     
  5. Yeah, it has nothing to do with science... (scratching my head wondering why you would mention such trivial anecdote here...)


    ROFL!
    Yes, chemistry has made progress, I must agree on that :):D:(


    Osu!
     
  6. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    It was your anecdote, not mine.
     
  7. Hummmm....... I am not sure what you are really disagreeing on here.

    Take 50 years for instance - which track & field records have improved by more than 10% (outside of a technical change like the high jump in 68, or the pole vault that gained from better materials)?
    I have not checked precisely, but the few that came to mind did not come close to these 10%. (maybe in long distance and ultra long distance running?)

    Calling the sports science the 10% revolution, is not as "out there" as you seem to believe.

    The training methods we used in track & field in the late '70es and early '80es are not outdated. We used intervals, isometric/plyometric, overloaded explosive squats and overspeed.
    We may understand better how it works now, but we still used that way back then.

    So yeah, science helped sports make progress, but not as much as you seem to believe.


    Osu!
     
  8. NightSky

    NightSky Valued Member

    Weight lifting can mean lot of things.

    I believe that isolation exercices, comonn in bodybuilding wan't help you much in other activities exept bodybuilding, and that includes martial arts.

    Exercices that activates bigger percent of muscle groups in your body, they will help. Look for calisthenic exercices like push ups, pull ups, crunches, and squats. With weights, look for squats, deadlifts, benchpress..

    Or simply, combine strongman training with martial arts training, for best benefits, according to my experience..

    :hat:
     
  9. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Modern sports science didn't just happen in the year 2000, developments have been made for the past 100 years. I think the proof is in the pudding and I already posted the pudding.
     
  10. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    This is generally true, unless you have a body part that is lagging behind. There are several big differences between training to be a bodybuilder and training to be a martial artist. We all know this. The most obvious is the fact that strength is secondary to a bodybuilder, where aesthetics are the primary goal. Training for martial arts is much more complex than bodybuilding. You need to train your body in many different ways and you need to do much more balancing. For example, if you are a competitive martial artist, you also need to manage your weight to fight in weight classes and you can't just go all out and train to be the strongest, for as you add muscle, you will go up in weight class. You also can't just train for strength, you need to train cardio endurance, muscular endurance, etc. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that someone may need to do bicep curls to increase their strength.
     
  11. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Sandow was okay but there were many other tremendous lifters. Take Bob Peoples, who deadlifted a hair over 725 pounds at a body weight of 181 raw in 1949. According to the IPA and APF (both powerlifting organizations) that's still a phenomenal lift and would be a record breaker today.

    [​IMG]

    Or take John Grimek, who besides from being one of the best bodybuilders of his day also represented the US in the 1936 Olympics for weightlifting.

    [​IMG]

    If you want to go off sheer strongman exploits, Arthur Saxon's bent press (a specialized one-arm press) of 370 pounds at a BW of 200 pounds is still insane to this day.

    [​IMG]

    Henry Steinborn squatting 500 pounds might not seem impressive, but when you see that there was no uprights back then and he first had to rock it onto his back to squat with it, that's a different story.

    [​IMG]

    Doug Hepburn's best strict press was 420 pounds. Zydrunas Savickas currently holds the WR log press at 462 pounds, and that's using a power jerk. Hepburn's not that far off.

    Most men who were considered lifters in the Golden Era were pressing at least their body weight over head. How many gym trainees do you think can consistently do that now? It was a different time, back when strength and physique were the same thing and there wasn't the kind of separation we have now.
     
  12. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    The deadlift, records, etc:

    http://drsquat.com/content/knowledge-base/blast-past-dr-deadlift

    Yes, People's record was impressive at his time, but he has been surpassed and when we are talking about lifting at these extremes, 10lbs is a significant jump. I don't have much time to respond to the others, but if you want I will later. It is a mistake to dismiss modern training science, or tried and true methods. Machines have never surpassed plain old free-weights.. It is more of a mistake not to train.
     
  13. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Though I never bashed modern training science, it is also a mistake in my opinion to ignore what many of these strong men did in an era free of any kind of supplementation or illegal drugs.

    It's rare nowadays to find elite lifters who don't use special "supplements" to get the edge, simply because if they don't they don't stand a chance. Even some of the best lifters that I admire around today have all been busted once or twice.
     
  14. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    I think using juice is just stupid. But keep in mind that juice was available and used for athletic performance starting in the 1940s. You also must realize that there are plenty of athletes out there today who are natural, as most of these competitive sports have banned and tested for drug use for some time.
     
  15. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    In certain places, yes. And I do know there are many great athletes out there who don't use drugs. Especially in the lifting and bodybuilding world though, even some of those who call themselves "natural" lifters aren't. Even tests can be circumvented nowadays though depending on what you use and how you use it.

    I used to compete in powerlifting and strongman, but even in the amateur ranks it started poking its head up. That's why though I still enjoy the training I'm pretty much content to never compete again except for against myself. There are many great athletes who will never touch the stuff but to go pro there is a huge amount of pressure to use drugs to be competitive. That's why it's better to look at somebody like the great John Davis who we can pretty much guarantee was drug-free (he quit competing in 1953 and steroids weren't FDA approved until 1958, so it's pretty fair to assume the majority of his lifts from 1938-1953 were without enhancement) and a powerhouse to boot.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Bigmikey

    Bigmikey Internet Pacifist.

    Well, I dont know that I necessarily agree with this. Strong biceps are strong biceps so whether I gain that strength from strict dumbell curls or from heavy deads, whats the difference?

    Strong triceps are strong triceps so whether I get them from pushdowns or from heavy bench, again, whats the difference?

    Granted doing compound moves you can achieve more benefit in a shorter time but you cant discount isolationy moves. Also, certain body parts may be genetically stubborn and not respond the same way that others do so you may very well have to rely on isolation moves to avoid imbalances.

    I think a really important point to make is ultimately people need to train in a manner which they enjoy whether thats as a bodybuilder or a powerlifter or what have you. If you dont enjoy it you can decrease your liklihood of sticking to it by a factor of ten. Currently I train in a style much more BBer like than strength athelete like. I've been trying to go for higher reps for a while but I think thats behind me. Starting with my next workout I'll be going back to a lower rep range. Try as I may over the years I just cant seem to get excited about a different approach to training. The times I've tried to be more strength oriented or more power oriented I got so bored and paranoid that I wasnt training everything as thoroughly as I should be that I'd slip right back to what I do now.

    My point being, just like no one martial art is best neither are any particular styles of lifting the end all, be all. As long as it keeps you in the gym pushing and pulling your **** off I say right on, do your thing.
     
  17. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    A lot of old timers concentrated on strict curls too, technically considered an "isolation" movement nowadays but when you have guys like Davis above curling 109% of their body weight, that's just nuts.
     
  18. Bigmikey

    Bigmikey Internet Pacifist.

    I KNOW, right?!?! I've seen some vid clips of old-timers training and its amazing to see how strong they were. They didnt have the supplements we have today or the variety of foods. They certainly didnt have 327 different kind of steroid or designer performance enhancing drug and yet they built impressive physiques which were in no small way STRONGER than many of our atheletes today.
     
  19. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Yup. Genetics, past athletic endeavors, dietary differences all play roles in making us who we are and since these all vary from person to person, training should too.
     
  20. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    There have always been those with freaky genetics coupled with extreme will and sound training. Steroids actually started making there way into athletic circles long before 1953 (late 1940s). Here is an interview where he speaks on that very subject. You can believe him or not, but clearly he certainly could have used if he was so inclined. Whether he did or not is up to you to believe what he says:

    http://chidlovski.net/liftup/a_john_davis.asp

    He certainly wouldn't be the first to lie about it. However, I would like to think he is telling the truth.
     

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