Hoi mate, Well others have given good info actually, but I want insert my 2 cents. Basically we have two skeletal muscles groups, the red muscles and the white muscles. Red muscles - These are often called slow twitch muscles. We use them for performing long task, so they are our "stamina muscles". These muscles are also bulky muscles, so when they are built up, we get buff. Our red muscles get their name because they have Hemoglobin; and so they are our aerobic muscles. You can develop these muscles with aerobic exercises (duh), but they are the main muscles group that is developed when doing weight lifting (namely when doing high reps at an average to low speed). Anything carido actually builds these muscles really. White muscles - These are our fast twitch muscles. These muscles are for explosive power; they are high output, but weak at performing for extended periods. They are leaner than the red muscle group. In contrast to red muscles groups, they are anaerobic, so they don't use oxygen, and form lactate instead of pyruvate; I'm sure many people are familiar with lactate cramps, and oxygen debt (heavy breathing after a work out) associated with breaking down the lactate. To develop white muscle tissue, Anaerobic training is needed; so think of activities that need explosive work, like sprinting, or low reps with high speed weight training. Interval training is very good for developing white muscles too. Now from the stand point of a Karateka, I would argue that white muscles are more important to develop than red muscles, as often being able to fire off a fast and powerfull punch to knock someone out is more important than having stamina. But this does change for what reason you are a MA. If you are training for SD, than white muscles are of the upmost importance, and also, accuracy (for pressure points like the solar plexus, throat, eyes, etc.), which I personally find is often overlooked. If you are training for sport, than no doubt, red muscles are needed, as you just won't have the stamina to last the rounds. But look at it either way, and white muscles are still very important for speed and power. Also Jujitsu practionares will need more red muscles than a karateka, as most of their fighting is done with chokes and holds, which is a task for aerobic muscles; of course Jujitsu-ka's shouldn't totally neglect white muscles, as I'm sure they are needed for throws or set ups (I have no experience with grappling arts so this is pure speculation ). Another hidden benefit to red muscles, is that since they are bulkier, they act as "armour" for the bones and organs. And they can also be tensed and held for an extended period of time, so you can protect yourself from a blow; sanchin kata anyone? A side note is, that there really isn't a trade off between the two muscles, so you can develop both of them simultaniously, without too much problem. So if you like weight training and the benefits, do it.
I understand where your instructor is coming from though. I kind of share the same trane of thought as him. But this is mostly because I don't practice any other form of physical activity apart from MA. So to me, by pure repetion of the techniques you will become more efficient/accustomed to the techniques, as you are developing the muscles that are needed, in the way that they are needed. So I train by interval training with the various techniques; so punches at high speed for a few seconds, a little break, than kicks at high speed for a few seconds, break, repeat till tired. I would recomend doing this static, shadow boxing (footwork, very important too), and then heavy bag. As you can tell from my first post, this is training almost purely for fast twitch muscles. But IMHO, there's no harm in supplementing your training with weight training, it really can't do any harm, and it certainly has some benefits.
That really isn't factually. We actually have a spectrum of fiber types that are lumped into fast, slow and intermediate twitch with a variety within these. Additionally, the muscles make energy from a variety sources. Any martial artist should train all these systems. Just so you know, in my early twenties I did nothing but karate. I did this for about four years straight 2-3 days per week in a formal class and much on my own in addition. I got pretty fast. However, it wasn't until I started adding weight training and some Olympic style lifts that I became super fast. You need to train with weights if you are a serious martial artist, anyone who clings to the you don't need weights is a dinosaur IMHO and will be left in the dust by anyone who knows what they are doing with modern training science.
not just modern training science and equipment. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qKW5e-PPw"]Morio Higaonna - Body Training - Hojo Undo - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJeOCRV0oF0&feature=related"]8.SESAN KATA by MORIO HIGAONNA - YouTube[/ame] seems pretty fast to me, eh?
Resistance is resistance. However, modern training science has come a very long way since the chishi was invented or Miyagi discovered the kongoken in Hawaii. Think about that, Miyagi saw something new and said wow let's try it and if it works use it. Not much of a leap for us to believe he would also embrace many new developments in training science. Motubu sensei lifted rocks to get stronger. Don't you think he would have done barbell squats if he had access to the equipment and an understanding of what it does and how to use it? I use a chishi myself and in our dojo, we use a kongoken. I personally find much more flexibility with modern free-weights.
never said anything to the contrary, neko just pointing out that those that deride resistance training are dinosaurs even when compared to the 'proper' dinosaurs in the world of karate, so to speak.
Well the two major groups of skeletal muscles (the ones we use for movement, i.e. karate) are the aerobic red muscles, and the anaerobic white muscles. For me to write about all the muscle groups, that'd be a newspaper article, also I'm only qualified in talking about the white and red muscle groups. But in general, the methods of developing the given effect are pretty much as I described. For big, strong, slow twitch muscles, do something to the effect of high reps and average to low speed. For the lean, explosive, fast twitch muscles, do something to the effect of low reps with a high speed (interval training preferably). The type of weight training, and the way that you weight train (fast or slow, high reps or low reps) can have large differences in their effects. That was mentioned in my first post. So if you do interval training with weights, with low reps at a high speed, and then gradually increase the load, then you'll see a massive increase in your speed. However if you work with high reps at an average speed, and gradually increase the load, you'll have stronger muscles, and more enduring muscles, but your speed may not have increased as much as the previous routine. Obviously this isn't a black and white affair, many variables take place, as what is average to slow speed, and what are high and low reps, and genetic predispositions, etc etc etc. Consider me a dinosaur I don't train for the ring, or to be an athlete rlly. I train to be a martial artist, and my training style has sufficed for me, but that may be genetics (6'4 with a broad build, only bears are scary to me). I also have a hatred for gyms, so the more training I can do at home or at the Dojan, the better to me.
No one says you have to do anything, just don't discourage someone else from lifting based on bro-science, mystic tradition or personal feelings. Weight training has been a part of karate probably as long as karate has existed. Modern science validates what masters like Choki Motubu, Chojun Miyagi and Shoshin Nagmine all believed in, which is resistance training improves your ability as a karateka.
You didn't really read my whole post did you? I actually concluded that weight training can have some benefits for a MAist. I never said don't do it. I said that "in my opinion", fast twitch muscles are "more" important for a MAist than the slow twitch muscles are. I mean draw your opinions as you will, but scientifically speaking, fast twitch muscles are more usefull for fast/powerful strikes. But, if you goal is to enter the ring, then you WILL need some form of stamina (red muscles). Also if you develop your red muscles, you can use them as "armour" as demonstrated in Sanchin kata, and weight training can only help in this area. Please make sure I actually said what you are convicting me of saying.
That't true, but I would not put that much emphasis on "modern" sports science... Old timers knew that picking up heavy things and moving them increased strength, speed & endurance... That covers 90% of it. All the new stuff deals with the remaining 10% In any event, regularly and consistently showing up for training beats any "new science", every time! Osu!
No doubt this is true. However, concepts like periodization, knowledge of dietary science and it application to strength training and many other things have truly revolutionized things. Don't sell science short, what we know today is light years ahead of what we knew even in the 1970s. Yes, without hard work and discipline, nothing will happen, but that has always been true.
Aye aye mate, agreed, that's the beauty of an open forum. If the training style works, use it. Good luck with your training as well.
Yeah, maybe we recently "revolutionize" all that, let's call that the 10% revolution if you like! Our parents and ancestors knew when to rest (guess what? they rested when they were tired!) - how is that for periodization? As to dietary science, I look around me when I am in the USA, and I am not very impressed! OSu! In the same way, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and the FED "revolutionized" the banking industry... Banks still go down with a frightening and predictable regularity, but now John Smuck is so ignorant that he believes that GS is doing God's work!
Both have their strengths and weaknesses so using both is the best way to go. I don't know if your school has tan but all it basically is is a barbell. I know we did squats with it among other exercises. I find a lot of the hojo undo is beneficial in ways that other exercises don't really address. I lift rocks for fun and I've gotta say too, they are way tougher than any barbell. My first time I was deadlifting over 500 pounds yet a 225 stone was an absolute bruiser to lift.
I'm still a fan of the old time ways personally. Some of the feats of strength those guys did then are still amazing nowadays. Despite the fact that more people than ever are now weight training too, most modern lifters can't even hold a candle to them.
Farmer's strength, born from a lifetime of carrying stuff around all day long, sleeping early, eating healthy stuff, periodizing with the seasons and humping Mrs Farmer nearly every night! Osu!
Forget the weights until you are a 2nd kyu or higher or have been training for a couple of years, by then you should have good technique and developed a well conditioned body by doing a couple of years of bodyweight conditioning exercises. You will then know and understand a lot more about Karate and what you are trying to achieve and so be able to utilise weights to supplement your training and conditioning. Good luck !
That's way too long in my opinion. During my first Goju Ryu class I was holding nigiri game (gripping jars) and doing all sorts of exercises with them and tried my hand at a chishi (stone lever). Okinawan karate was all about strengthening the body for the rigorous training it was to later undergo, hence why you'd sometimes have half a class or more devoted to hojo undo (supplementary training) alone. You can do a combination of body weight exercises and free weight exercises from Day One if you wish. Waiting until 2nd kyu is way too long.
