Is this what you would call good Taijutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by KidKrav, Nov 27, 2010.

  1. KidKrav

    KidKrav Valued Member

    Ok guys, my understanding is that Taijutsu is one of the most common fighting systems taught in modern schools that claim affiliation to Ninjutsu. I'm not overly familiar with the system, so if you are I'd be curious whether or not you think these are good demonstrations.

    The videos feature Mark Russo who learned from Stephen K. Hayes of the Bujinkan.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_acYknD0K0"]YouTube - Martial Arts & Ninjutsu : Ninjutsu Techniques[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws6OPXLq3LE"]YouTube - Martial Arts & Ninjutsu : Close Combat Tactics[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64dBrrSZzFY"]YouTube - Martial Arts & Ninjutsu : Advanced Techniques in Ninjutsu[/ame]

    To me these look like good demonstrations, but I don't really know what to look for. This next video isn't really "Taijutsu" but I figured I'd throw it in too as I've seen this technique before and I'm curious as to it's legitimacy.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiiGD3okDfY"]YouTube - Martial Arts & Ninjutsu : Stealth Techniques of Ninjutsu[/ame]

    So what do you Ninjutsu guys think?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
  2. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    I couldn't watch the 4th one as it just kept freezing but of the first three, I didn't mind them. It just looks like he is looking at the tactical application of taijutsu movement and striking against more realistic attack scenarios.
    He seemed quite comfortable in strike range too, which is good.
    I wonder if this guy has any footage of him in real-time?
     
  3. KidKrav

    KidKrav Valued Member

    @Rubber Tanto: The fourth video has Mark Russo explaining walking technique. He emphasized that you raise the feet straight up and step down with the blades of the feet, all while paying attention to minimizing noise.

    I'm not sure if I he has any real-time videos available, but we can see some info about his school here.


    I posted these for two main reasons. First off I wanted to know if these were a good example of ninja/ninja-like fighting techniques for myself, and second I wanted to share them if they were.

    So far we have one person that says they're all right. Does anyone else have anything to weigh in?
     
  4. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    Maybe you could tell people here where you're from? People here might be able to identify a good dojo that you could visit.
     
  5. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    I found this:
    Which seems to be his school
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_adAYFnLD5o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_adAYFnLD5o[/ame]

    It has some good moments in it like at the start with the little kid,
    and I like the realistic attack drills

    BUT I found everyones posture seemed a little lacking. All stances and guards seem to have gone out the window for some of the students.
    2:40 is a good example of what I mean.
     
  6. KidKrav

    KidKrav Valued Member

    I live in Lancaster Pennsylvania. If anyone knows of any good seminars scheduled in PA, NY, NJ, DE, or MA I'd be interested in hearing about those.

    If there's a school in my area I'd love to know, but I don't think there is.


    I suppose that's to be expected to some extant for people who are still learning. Thanks for pointing that out though as I wouldn't have known. As for the first three videos I posted, I'm gathering that they're decent examples of Taijutsu technique but too slow too judge how effective the practitioner would be live.
     
  7. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Rubber Tanto posted

    When was the last time you saw Dr Hatsumi strike a posture?

    I was always taught that one starts with posture at the beginning stages and as you progress the kamae become a little more difficult to see as they become somewhat internalised and a natural part of ones taijutsu.

    I think we had a thread discussing this once before.

    As for the clips i'm not goint to say anything except that personally when it comes to demonstrations on you tube the TSD ones still seem amongst the best.

    Found this which I thought was nice as one doesnt often see a female with long weapons.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2S4yt8QCO0"]YouTube - Tori Myotoshi Eldridge Fall Festival 2009[/ame]

    as for taijutsu

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnkS_6u7VOA&feature=related"]YouTube - Tori Eldridge[/ame]

    Beautiful

    I leave you to decide what I mean by that.

    Hmm wonder if thats really Manga:)
     
  8. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Mr Russo's Wife...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH9Ug-jBJA0&NR=1"]YouTube - Helen Russo at Festival 2008[/ame]
     
  9. Manga

    Manga Moved On

    Nope Garth, I'm neither Tori nor Helen :love:

    I didn't watch all the Mark Russo clips because I'm hopping around waiting for someone to come fix my heating but I did like the first one at least and want to try that next time I'm in class. I might not be able to wait until tomorrow night though so one of my neighbours might be in for a shock :eek:
     
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Meh

    :D

    Would of been nicer if the whole thing was done from a tighter distance, I'd like to see him try it without the comfort zone the distance they were working at provided.

    Reacting at a tighter range against an uke with more intent would of changed it, also putting a fence in would of made more sense and been a whole lot safer.

    Overall, imo, it was a bit flawed both in application and the drill itself.



    That's my bit of backseat driving for the day :D
     
  11. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    Why are they wearing Star Trek: The Next Generation uniforms?
     
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Double post
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
  13. Big Will

    Big Will NinpƓ Ikkan

    But it's pretty obvious very few people go through the processes that Hatsumi sensei did in order to internalize and naturalize the "postures" and movements.

    In the videos posted by the OP, I saw no ninjutsu fighting movement (just my opinion though). What I did see though was a guy who talked and moved pretty much exactly like Stephen K Hayes. So kudos to him for following his master, and I am positive the techniques are very potent and that he can handle himself well in an altercation. But that doesn't make what he shows "ninjutsu".
     
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Third clip.

    "What makes Ninjutsu different from other martial arts is taisabaki"

    :bang:

    Yeah because tai sabaki is unique to "Ninjutsu" :bang: :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
  15. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned

    I would like to point something out, as I am a little surprised that no one else has yet.

    It may help everyone if I point out the fact that these clips are of Mark Russo, the same guy who starred in the following clip I posted here a little while ago:

    [ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUCQzdbQrg0"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUCQzdbQrg0[/ame]


    I'm sure everyone has heard Hatsumi sensei say it a million times by now:

    IF YOU WANT TO SEE A PERSON'S TAIJUTSU, WATCH HOW THEY HANDLE WEAPONS.

    Mark Russo not only moves exactly like Stephen K. Hayes, he thinks and talks like him as well. And that's because To Shin Do is a business, above and beyond whatever else it may be. I thought it blatantly obvious that To Shin Do movement has absolutely nothing to do with any iteration of "ninjutsu" that you will find expressed in the Bujinkan, Jinenkan, or the Genbukan. If it resembles anything, it would be something along the lines of Christa Jacobs. You guys remember her, right?

    For the OP I have two words: caveat emptor.

    For everyone else I have only one: CROM!


    - Mark Spada
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    1:14 seems like a very good way to get yourself run through.
     
  17. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Okay, I'll go against the grain.

    Frankly, I'm not impressed. The technique in the first one is fundamentally flawed in that the evasion/deflection against the shove, I believe, has little chance of working at all, and the Oni Kudaki (particularly the first one) seems rather powerless. Against a realistic distance, the evasion won't work as it'll be simply too fast, and the first Oni Kudaki where he just grabbed the shoulder and pushed on the wrist, well, against some form of resistance (not sparring, just the guy still trying to hit you), that'll slip out pretty easily, and he's still being pummelled.

    The second one, well, he misses the Musha Dori/Gyoja Dori, and gets more of a wrist control (not too dissimilar to some things in Asayama Ichiden Ryu, actually), then on his second demo shows something that is far too fine-motor to rely on (if these are actually supposed to be street techniques). Oh, and for "close quarters", the opponent is still too far away.

    The third one, to begin with he makes some major screw ups in terms of simple terminology. Since when is Tai Sabaki one word? Tai = Body, Sabaki = .... well, according to Mark, it means "art" (nope, that would be "jutsu", or "gei", actually), or "magic" (really? Nothing resembling "sabaki" came up in any of my dictionaries... Kijutsu did, though). Sabaki is movement, or more literally, manipulation, so it's just body movement. You'd think the "Senior Master Instructor" should know that, yeah? Technique wise, again the distance is way out, particularly on the last one. If someone has grabbed you, and means to hit you, it's a tight, close grab, with you pulled in close, and the arm very bent. The times you get the extended arm like that is when the other guy is more concerned about you hitting them, and they straight-arm you. Those guys you just arm-bar, but I'd do it rather more, uh, aggressively than Mark does here. I wouldn't rely on that action to actually stop anyone.

    With all that said, though, as what Mark is presenting is a take on "modern" attacks and defences, that is how I was viewing them, and in that regard, they don't pass muster. They seem "thought out", and theorised, rather than tested. As for anexample of Ninjutsu, well he didn't show any of the classical movements, kata etc, so I'm not commenting on that side of things here.
     
  18. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    In order to be fair, I'll share the following clips to contrast the previous one:

    [ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhgDS1WQfIE"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhgDS1WQfIE[/ame]

    [ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K97Cqux04E"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K97Cqux04E[/ame]


    This is Adam Mitchell of the Jinenkan dojo in Mahopac, New York. I feel that the movement displayed in these clips are a much better expression of taijutsu. If you are looking for a dojo in Pennsylvania, you might want to try a man by the name of Chad Flakker.


    - Mark Spada
     
  19. KidKrav

    KidKrav Valued Member

    I'm not saying it's wrong, but how can you judge someone's unarmed technique by watching their weapon skills?
     
  20. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Small errors in a person's taijutsu tend to get magnified when they have a weapon so large errors are made even worse.

    If someone doesn't understand distancing then it will show if they are engaging someone with a weapon, same can be said for kamae, tactics etc
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010

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