Is this fist anywhere in any style? Or- did I get mansplained?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by aaradia, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    This happened last week at work. I had my left thumb taped up. I had injured it in sparring (explanation later) and I seem to keep re-injuring it.

    So, a patron asked me what happened and I replied with humor that when your instructor tells you to hit with your first knuckle (simulated a small sow choi) you really need to do that and not hit with the center of your thumb. (Which is what I stupidly did).

    His reply perplexed me, he explained yeah that you need to make a proper fist. That is the mansplaining part. Like this dude did not know my experience, but he felt he knew more and had to show me this?

    And the weird thing was his fist was - to my training- just dumb. He curled the fingers in typical fist pattern, but then held the thumb straight at the side- not curled over the fingers. o_O So he mansplained and IMO didn't have a clue.

    I politely said something about different styles having different fists and showed him how I do it. I also politely asked what style he trains in. He said his father showed him that from military training. I politely muttered something. After all, I was at work and he was a patron.

    So, CLF has a ton of different fist/ hand strike positions, but none of them hold the thumb straight to the side like that. We always use the thumb to reinforce the other fingers in some way. His way seemed like a good way to injure your thumb. (And I should know as I did something wrong and injured mine!) But does anyone know of any style or military training that teaches a fist with the thumb straight up to the side? Just to double check.

    I mean the guy was friendly enough, but it seemed like he just assumed I knew nothing and could spout nonsense at me and I would think it was knowledge. I can only assume because he thought a female wouldn't know better?

    The whole thing did not upset me, just in case people can't read my tone through these words. It amused me.:p
     
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  2. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    He was talking bobbins.
     
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  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

  4. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    Theres a couple of fist techniques in Kyokushin believe it or not that has the thumb placed on the top that I remember from my Karate days. Ryuto Ken or Dragons fist places the thumb on top, I was taught it as mainly targeting the hinge of the jaw. Second Technique was Oya Yubi Ippon Ken, thumb placed on the top and striking to soft targets i.e. neck, groin with second digit of the thumb, also was taught this one by my first Jujitsu teacher Hanshi Frank Perry, think I have seen Smurf use this one as well.
     
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I wouldn't say it's sexist. I still get guys coming up to me and telling me how I should fight/train. Telling me they are too deadly to fight etc.
     
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  6. Simon

    Simon Moved on. Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'm sure Hannibal won't mind me telling you this story.

    He had a Krav Maga guy turn up and ask, "when do you guys spar? We spar all the time so we can fight".

    Hannibal asked him to glove up and do the jab catch drill and full power.

    Hannibal hit him first shot and the guy hasn't been back since.

    I have heard that behind my back a new student is asking when we fight.

    He is an ex squaddie and combat veteran in his late 20's, early 30's.

    He isn't ready and would crap himself if it got cranked up to 10.

    Personally I prefer the student who attends 9 times out of 10, ask sensible questions, does a bit at home and is happy to go on the journey with you.

    Maybe it's social media and all the street fighting videos that are available now. Everyone is an armchair warrior.
     
  7. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Is he asking for it to be cranked up to 10 or just asking for some sparring?
     
  8. Simon

    Simon Moved on. Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    He want to fight.

    Firstly he wouldn't know how to fight beyond getting into bar fights.

    Secondly I am more concerned at this stage that my students do the basics well.

    Then comes trust. If I am teaching someone how to defend themselves I need to make sure they understand the legal aspects in regard to what they can and can't do.

    This is the legal underpinning we talk about.

    We then have protective equipment. This still requires a level of trust between the students. Some can take more than others and the same goes for the language, the pushing and shoving, head strikes and so on.

    If someone comes in wanting to fight they are directed to the local pub on a Friday night.

    If someone wants to come in and learn a martial art, or to defend themselves, the by product of which is the ability so fight someone off then we'll talk.
     
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  9. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I've seen a similar fist formation in the buj , I think it was called "boshi ken"
     
  10. aikiMac

    aikiMac "BJJ Over 40" club member Moderator Supporter

    Likewise at my club, except the owner directs people to less strict clubs rather than to bars, and I think it is the right way to go. It's too easy to get hurt even by accident in this hobby/sport/profession.
     
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  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Basically he wanted to spar because he said "drills aren't realistic"

    As Simon said, he ate the first shot in the drill that is our basic training just with a bit more volume and couldn't cope

    Sparring is an important drill, but not a panacea
     
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  12. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    If he can't cope with a simple give and take then he's not ready to spar for sure.

    Nothing wrong with wanting to spar in my opinion but I'd certainly argue that alive drills like jab catch drilling and give and take exercises are not useless at all. They build a foundation to take you into sparring.

    In my experience when meat heads really want to spar they get put with people who can handle them and they chill out after. I can say I was someone who was frankly bursting to spar in every martial art I've done but then I'm not a meat head who thinks all other aspects of training are useless, am a sensible partner, can take a punch and ultimately, it's just the part I enjoy the most.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
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  13. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    If you mean the thumb sticking out like hitchhiking, that seems weird, and I've never seen that. It would be strange to have some random person tell you to do that.

    I'm assuming he wasn't talking about having the thumb bent in tight to the side of the index finger, so the tip of the thump is near the 1st knuckle -basically a standard fist, but with thumb on top, not on side. In Isshinryu Karate we put the thumb on top of the fist like that. A Kung Fu style I studied for a bit called Hung Fut also used the same thumb position.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Yeah, I've had some newby kids do that. A lot of times, mid form, I would stop them and tuck their thumb back over the fingers.
     
  15. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

  16. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    Sounds like the wrong place for him to be flexing his ego (or the right place!)



    ShiShin Ken looks like pinky promise?
     
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    It's just a bad boxing glove position isn't it?
     
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  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah...some gloves put your thumb in that sort of position.
     
  19. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Thumb on top of hand is not something we do.

    I have seen it in some choi li phut. They do a sort of front fist (like a backfist but the other way round and swiping towards and in rather than out and away). That makes sense because it gets the thumb out of the way

    Have seen it in some kinds of jitsu as a strike into a soft target, throat, muscles of arm or something. uses the knuckle of the thumb to minimise the area of contact and increase point pressure. Might be handy for short power "popping" techniques that can be used to steal a beat and by time to apply something with power.

    Personally not my thing.
     
  20. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    That's why BJJ is so good. If someone wants to go 100% they can get it with a purple belt all day.
     
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