Is this chi?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by travelguy90, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    What experiences? Any weather magic? Are you Merlin? Some sort of evidence here please.

    Speaking of which I thought you were leaving? I guess it's not as second rate as all that if you find yourself drawn back in to the discussion. There's plenty of exchange of information - it's just that you happen to disagree with the information being exchanged.

    Alternatively I can work out regularly at the gym, make frequent good use of my sexual energy, allow my restless mind to wander and learn, enjoy money, and no waste my time on chi nonsense. I'll get much better results and a happier life out of it. Which do you think I'll stick with?

    Again - people aren't going to say good things about bad things simply to make you happy.

    I'm well aware of the power of prayer - it's pretty much up there with hoping to win the lottery without buying a ticket.

    As to the straight and narrow, I strayed some time ago and have no intention of going back to that boring way of life.

    Good. Cats are the devil's work. Filthy allergy-causing creatures. :p

    Pretty much, yep.

    Government claims are often worse than most - they're vaguely based on good science but dumbed down and broken to suit whatever agenda happens to be around at the time. Far too many different lobbyists and special interest groups out there. The claims on alcohol are one of my favourites - arrived at by looking at the amount a person can drink in a single weekly session without risking long-term effects, then divided by seven to get a daily figure (when drinking medium amounts regularly is much worse than drinking large amounts infrequently). For even more entertainment value the figure for women (who were covered with men in the research, and so didn't have a separate number) were simply the average numbers with a third taken away.

    That's why you should be sceptical of every claim and look for information/evidence yourself.

    Often snake-oil, sometimes genuinely effective drugs.

    Usually reasonable with good-quality advice and knowledge - hence why they're generally effective if stuck to diligently. Sometimes just snake oil nonsense again.

    It's that the results are no more consistent in, say, accupuncture whether you have a professional do it or Bobby down the street stick a few needles wherever he feels like - so long as you're convinced of its efficacy. That means that whatever's going on it's not what the accupuncturists claim.

    Nope.

    Partly I suppose - since the chi cultists can't even agree on or define what they believe it does make it a little difficult to critically examine their claims. It's also that the claims are often based purely on anecdotal evidence, with a great reluctance to bring forth anything more robust.

    What indications exactly?

    Well, yes, reasonable enough. I suppose on-demand might appear a bit harsh but it should be pointed out that claims verified by science - all of them - can produce solid, measurable evidence on demand.

    To claim otherwise strains mine. There is nothing to suggest that the world isn't this way, apart from a few stories which float around about great invisible, incomprehensible, undetectable beings with ultimate power.
     
  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Fair enough. For myself I tend to draw a line between healthy skepticism and jaded cynicism. The need for the use of experiements at all tells me that not all truthes are self-evident or even completely understood. Currently I have a curiousity about Quantum Mechanics much of which can only be studied as it is reflected and suggested in Math formulae. Decades back the idea of a "Black Hole" was only speculation. While these have now been identified, "White Holes" and "Worm Holes" have not. In much the same way, sub-atomic particles, field theory and possible inter-relationship with cognitive process are still cutting edge.

    Speaking for myself, it seems to be a mistake to limit the understanding of Existence solely to what we can perceive with our five senses. I have also found, in my own life, that I have been arrogant enough to want the natural order of things to dance on my command. I was mistaken. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  3. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned


    Yeah.... it was one of the weirder things I've seen. Pulled a pretty heavy rainstorm out of a clear day in a matter of seconds. It was WEIRD. Might've had weather channel on his bluetooth or something, but given the unique nature of the circumstance I tend not to think so.

    Now this is where the line must be drawn... between my unusual experience and ya'll's common sense. But the weirdness stands, and it is what it is (as Buddha might've said.... :hat:) All I can say to you all is that qigong is what tradition says it is, and when the time comes, science may verify it. That's fine and dandy. It's helped me, changed my life, and that wild spooky crap is straight up. So until it happens to you just throw your hands up and say "whatever, dude. not real, fantasy..." And I'll say "but this and this and this has happened in my life which cannot possibly be explained by linear rational thinking" to which you MUST reply "then either you are schizophrenic or some weird things went down and you should've either had a camera to record it or just never spoken of it, let alone used it as evidence...."

    You know, I missed the whole Harry Potter thing. I was too old for it when it came around. I was more of an "Indiana Jones" kid. Go figure. :hat:

    I will not draw you a picture, because it would not do justice to the event. I am a poor artist.
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Chi has never been a way to control the weather in any of the classics - when it is rpesented as such I smell "scam"
     
  5. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Taiji Lou, remember last year when you claimed you could learn Tai Chi from a book? You swore blind you has it all nailed down.
    Also remember what happened when you found a proper instructor? You came back and apologised for being wrong.
    Well, see you next year.
     
  6. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Who ever said that all truths were self-evident or even completely understood? That's why we use experiments, many of which produce completely counter-intuitive results.

    Nonsense - there are constant practical experiments being carried out on quantum mechanics theory. It is one of the most tested areas of modern physics and is far more than simply reflected and suggested by mathematics.

    Not really - the proton was confirmed in 1918, the neutron in 1932, neutrinos detected in 1956, the muon in 1936 and many of the others such as the kaon in the 1950s. The quark model was confirmed in the 1950s as well and the standard theory developed a couple of decades afterwards. More research has gone on since and more and more has been determined, but they are certainly not as fresh and new as you might think.

    As to white holes and worm holes, they're mathematical constructions at this point but the theories (more specifically, the predictions the theories make about how they would act) are being tested. This is how black holes are picked up.

    Finally as to their relationship with cognitive processes, I assume you're talking about the poorly-named observer effect? This is not some mystical property of intelligence, but a property of a more complex system. A wave/particle which is not measured is an isolated system, and so the probability wave does not collapse quickly. If we measure it then it becomes part of a more complex system (after all, the detector is a system in its own right) and the wave collapses much more quickly.

    Our five senses (well, more than five actually but that's neither here nor there at the moment) allow us to build tools to enhance them. These tools allow us to experiment, and then we get results from the experiments which allow us to test our theories. That's not to say that we automatically know everything, simply that we are able to extend our capability to understand. Denying that and writing something off as beyond our understanding is childish and ignorant.

    I've never wanted that, nor are there any scientists I'm aware of who do. What does this have to do with anything else in the thread?
     
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    To which we say "Yes it can you just refuse to accept that"

    We all have weird experiences, but as I said before your own perception is absolutley the least dependable measure of truth in terms of proof
     
  8. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Wow - it rained here yesterday, quite heavily, despite being sunny seconds before. Must have been some wizard changing the weather.

    And what, precisely, does it say it is? Seems to be bordering on world-changing magic. Incidentally if your magician friend can make it rain, they could really use him in Africa.

    Or been able to repeat it. You're claiming it's real, but that you're unable to demonstrate it or arrange for a demonstration. My reply is that you were fooled, not that you're schizophrenic (gullible, but not schizophrenic).

    Obviously your childhood was lacking in magic and myth. It's okay, you're making up for this now.
     
  9. CosmicFish

    CosmicFish Aleprechaunist

    Yep. All of those should be treated as suspect until they can be proven to a reasonable standard of evidence. To stick with nutrition for an example, the government tells us that saturated fat is bad for us and its consumption should be limited. Despite the fact that there is not a good standard of evidence to support this. Most weight-loss prescriptions either only work for a short period then you put the fat back on, or they're some bogus pill that does nothing.

    However, even with these examples there is not a direct equivalence between nutrition and chi or exercise and chi. We know that fats, carbs and proteins exist. We know how the body metabolises them. We can construct experiments to measure how effective one diet is against another for different goals like fat loss or muscle gain. We know how exercise induces hypertrophy. Similarly, we can construct experiments to measure which exercises are more effective then others. None of this can be done with chi.

    This accusation of closed-mindedness comes up a lot. It's not entirely unearned, either. Many sceptics get to the point where they just get fed up with hearing bogus claims, seeing them debunked, then hearing the same claim come back up again over and over again that they get dismissive of such claims in the end. IMO, strictly speaking, the sceptics attitude should be one of open-minded scepticism.

    This is related to my post, above. If something cannot be produced at will then it will be difficult to test. Ideally we shouldn't be dismissive of something just because it can't be produced at will - I can't fall asleep at will, for example. However, if reasonable efforts have been made to accommodate the nuances of the thing being studied, and if results have consistently not been forthcoming, then it's reasonable to become more and more doubtful as time goes on.

    Does that help clarify at all?
     
  10. wu2wu

    wu2wu Valued Member

    well, obviously, there are too many misunderstandings to Chi. Chi does exist, in my opiniom, even it could not be proven as some people said. How many people here does understand relative theory? So, you would say it is wrong, wouldn't you? You believe relative theory is correct because many scientists told you it was proven to be correct. But those who cuold really understand this theory are less than 1% of people in the world. I would like to say, there are much more than 1% of people who believe chi exists.

    Chi is a normal part of human physiology, It exists and affects our health condition, but it could not work out of our bodies, It does not have any super power, it could not change the weather, you also do not need to be celibate to practice it.

    It is interesting. I read a lot texts in chinese Chi practice, most of them from Taoism. The texts did comment to be celibate when you practice chi exercise. At least some of these practices require to be celibate, for example, the most famous hard qigong, shaolin Iron-Palm, requires 1 year pracice without sex activity.

    But there are also many texts in taoism, suggest a sextual yoga like the tantra does. the practice of sextual yoga in taoism is kind of similar like tibetan tantra. The girl and guy practice at sametime, with sex intercourse to be part of the excercise. It claims to have much faster and better results to reach higher level of qigong practice.

    I met a taoist, who taught me how to practice, I tried 3 months without sex, after that, I did find I have much better sex ability. I believe it is a sex hygiene excersice rather than qigong one. Some qigong, as I am practicing, actually is a kind of yoga, chinese style of yoga. Two many were called qigong, including yoga, sex hygiene, kungfu, magic, cheating and religion, it is confusing.
     
  11. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Explain it then. That way a test can be developed. Simple.

    Me, and anyone else who did physics at college or higher - plus probably a few more with an interest in science.

    No, I believe it is correct because various tests have been done which I understand, which have demonstrated that it is (mostly) correct. There are inaccuracies, but I don't think you're capable of even starting to understand them. Relativity is a scientific theory (a theory in science is much, much more than a theory as you understand the term).

    Probably much higher than that actually.

    What does belief have to do with whether something exists or not? More than 1% of the world believe in magic, miracles and the like. Belief has nothing to do with whether or not something is real (in fact belief breaks down if there is any evidence that something is real, as it is no longer needed.

    Well, what is it then?

    1 years practice of sexual activity will give you something else made of iron, or kill you.

    Great. Now what's it supposed to actually do? More importantly where can I get lessons in it and do I get to choose my partner? I don't particularly care about being a 72nd level cosmic chi mysteron master, but the practice sounds good.

    If any of them were more than mystical nonsense, it'd probably be less confusing.
     
  12. wu2wu

    wu2wu Valued Member

    Lil, No point ot argue with you. As I said, Chi is mixed with belief, religion, tricks, magic and a lot of funny things. It is not the real concept in chinese traditional medicine books anymore.

    From 1980s, a lot of qigogn practitioners claimed they had super natural power but to be proven they were cheating. To me, some people take advantage of chi concept. Most of them are bad guys, they cheat you to pay money, they cheat some girls to serve them with sex activities. They are criminals. Most Taichi guys claimed chi practice acutally you can never believe it. I never believe them at all. It is just a kind of feeling or visualization, indeed.

    But chi does exist, it is a normal phisiology. From my sifu's point of view (he is a top kungfu master and a chinese traditional medical doctor, he is a professor in a chinese medical school), chi is related to nutrition and blood. Although I could not really understand, I do believe chi exists.As I practice kungfu he taught me, I did feel chi exists in body. when I walk,seat, lie down, I all can feel it. When I talk with somebody, I still can feel it. It moves in certain reutes, but not 100% similar like the books showed.

    I study western medicine in a top ten medical school in the world. In the medical building of my school, you can see a huge picture hanged on the wall in the lobby. It showed chinese understanding of human body, the chi's channels and wells. At least, my school and the professors and the adminstrators respect this kind of understanding. That is a reason the school could be top ten in the world. I am proud of it. What I learned most is to keep my mind more open to accept new ideas. It does not make any difference whether YOU believe it or not. There is a huge river in India, you say you could not believe because you never see, because nobody told you. Does that make sense?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2011
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No it doesn't because the river is always there when it is looked for - chi is not

    There is nothing in "magic chi" that cannot be duplicated easily and readily by "body mechanics chi"
     
  14. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Do not claim it does exist unless you can show me.

    So? I can induce self-generated feelings with enough concentration, and I've not even bothered practicing. Feelings mean nothing in this scenario.

    Yes, yes it does.

    You go have fun now. Incidentally you want to be careful with that sex yoga type stuff - plenty of scams have been run on similar things, and there's very few countries where it wouldn't be counted as paying for sex. But hey, don't let me upset your imagination.

    And yet you've still not said what it is. Are you planning to get to a point any time soon?

    Nothing new there.

    Here's where we disagree - as far as I can tell all chi cultists are either con artists, or delusional. So far I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary, despite years of looking and asking for it.

    Where are these routes? Why are they invisible and undetectable?

    Which one was it? Are you allowed to say its name or is it super-secret of the chi masters who teach there?

    No, it doesn't. The huge river in India people are happy to tell me about, I can see evidence for it, I could go and see it for myself. None of that applies to chi, all that's ever put forwards for it is the sort of stage patter I'd get from a professional magician - without the charm and expertise.
     
  15. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Millions of children believe in Santa Claus, so that must mean he is real. And thousands of people believe in the loch ness monster so that must be real.

    The world truly is a magical and special place for those who believe. it is also a place where they are very quickly separated from their money.
     
  16. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    What a great statement!

    I really want to know what medical school has the chinese map of the human body.

    What I would REALLY REALLY like to know is why they put it up there?

    Also what do the professors think of it?
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Some Geography departments will happily put up "here be dragons" maps as a curio - it is not necessarily an acceptance of their veracity
     
  18. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on


    This is where people get mixed up.The texts say you need to control ejaculation rather than be celibate.In fact sex without ejaculation is the only way you can build up high levels of qi.I practiced this method for around 18 months and the results were positive.Not something I bother with these days as these high levels of qi are of little use and serve no practical purpose.

    Most hard qigong is down to physics.For instance the age old trick of having a slab smashed on your chest whilst laying on a bed of nails is down to the slab absorbing the energy of the sledgehammer rather than the chest turning into iron.I used to do this circus trick in the seventies and at that time had not even heard of qigong.The spear to the throat is down to muscular conditioning rather than qi The throat is capable of taking hard blows provided it is conditoned by a physical method such as Goju's sanchin kata. As for the body not being able to be cut with knives- about as real as qigong masters being able to walk through walls or make elephants fly.
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I would argue that the spear to the throat is because of the spear itself - you never see a hard shafted spear used! The pressure is an elipse not a straight line
     
  20. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    It still hurts though.
     

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