Is this chi?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by travelguy90, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So in other words you would have "good mechanics" yes? Or what I now call "tensegrity"

    Which is the whole point I am making!
     
  2. melbgoju

    melbgoju Valued Member

    ***Warning**** not for the faint-hearted

    Do you mean like this bloke? -
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5hCczfGYv0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5hCczfGYv0[/ame]


    The problem with the whole concept of chi is fourfold:
    • it has a huge area of overlap with other paradigms that seek to explain similar things
    • Most of the unique claims it makes are contradicted by available evidence/observation
    • There is no objective or reliable evidence for any claims for chi, either directly or indirectly, that is not equally explained within other conceptual frameworks
    • Many claims of the properties of chi are unable to be tested and are in fact untestable (which is different)

    This is a case in point. This is a testable claim, and has been tested over the millenia. No physical channels such as these exist in the human body. If they are then claimed to not be physical, then they are no longer testable (btw, channels that are made of electromagnetism only would be testable and, again, have never shown up on equipment that can see such things). If they are considered to be the main nerves or arteries, then these vessels already have explicable functions and it is up to proponents of the chi paradigm to put forward the additional level of evidence required to show that they are also used in the manner described above.

    An observation, test or experience by itself cannot be taken as evidence for chi. Pretty much everything that has been described in this thread (and I say pretty much because I glossed over a few posts - my brain could only take so much) can also be explained equally as well, or better, through alternate paradigms.

    For something to be considered as evidence for chi, it needs to be an observation, test or experience that is explicable only by that paradigm. Something in isolation is just something. It is not, in and of itself, evidence for or against a particular conceptual framework. So, acupuncture for instance (in some cases anyway), works. Why it works, (and how well it works) is another story. Interestingly enough, much of the functional parts of acupuncture can be explained under other paradigms that do not call on the existence for chi.

    Even then, in isolation it is not enough. Chi, as people in this thread are describing it, is an extraordinary claim. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Having said all that, I have no problems with chi/ki as a visualisation device. I use something similar myself to help me with improving techniques. I imagine flows of energies through my body, or concentrating in different areas all the time, and I find it can almost instantly make the difference between success or failure in applying a technique (I find it works particularly well with joint manipulations and throws). Sometimes I even "feel" that energy, or the opponent's. But it's all visualisation. The brain isn't that good at picking between what is externally real and what we think is real, which is why visualisation works. (And if that's what floats your boat, then why not?)
     
  3. wu2wu

    wu2wu Valued Member

    Human bodies are much more complecated than your imagination. That's why I do not focus on Chi practice but do not deny it does exist.

    But it's all visualisation? Not, it is not to me. I said I felt chi when I did something else. and It repeated again and again. Recently, I did not practice kungfu a lot. and was kind of sick. No any feeling anymore.

    Something you could not prove it is correct, does not meen it is wrong.

    Well. I am leaving for several days. I am more interested in philosophy and Buddhism. I found a good discussion topic about the buddhism practice and sexuality. It is more fun to learn sex yoga than discussing chi.
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You mean people there will agree with you
     
  5. melbgoju

    melbgoju Valued Member

    But just because you felt something (repeatedly) is no evidence to support the existence of chi. The only thing it supports is that you felt something.
     
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Agreed, which is why I take the position that I do.

    I think the classic situation in this regard was the matter of abdomenal surgury conducted in China and reportedly accomplished using acupuncture for the anesthesia. Though the measure of CHI might not be possible, the ability to sustain quiesence while undergoing surgury is a behavior that can be measured. Once again, the agent may not be measureable (at this time) but the results may be a possibility. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  7. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    People can do this without requiring acupuncture as well. Self-hypnosis as a painkiller is fairly well-documented. In the same way the impact of suggestion on sensations of pain is well-known.
     
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Agreed. The approach under discussion is CHI and this is the agent that was reportedly manipulated to produce the outcome. There is always the opportunity for some other agent to be at work which is why, I think, we have these discussions; to determine if there might also be something else to consider. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Two words - placebo effect
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Exactly. Where such convenient labels fall short is that noone knows exactly how or why these things work. Certainly we know that the "placebo effect" occurs, just as most people are aware of "mind-over-matter" and "the power of suggestion". Still we don't know how these things happen except to say that its something that "people do with their minds". Notice I am not talking about the "carnie tricks" (IE. swallowing swords; walking on hot coals) which tend to be more illusions than substance. There are certainly plenty of these in the MA as well. Still there are enough cases of circumstances in which people have performed extraordinary feats --- often attributed to superhuman effort or spirit----that might otherwise not be accomplished. As I write this the matter of, say, Victor Frankl's survival of Auschwitz comes to mind. Just a thought.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Placebo effect is not a panacea to explain things - we STILL do not fully understand it, but it is consistent. Chi demos are not and have failed every test they are subjected to.

    Reality is that which does not go away when you stop believing in it
     
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Well.... I wouldn't say EVERY test.

    There is a difference between failing a test, and producing a result that is not completely understood.

    In the case of the American Medical Association, their MD-s tend to believe that there is something going on and that there is significant evidence to support TCM---including the matter of CHI-- as worthy of regard in producing a result.

    As far as consistent result I would have to say that is probably inaccurate. Use of moxibustion and needling to stimulate particular body points to produce a result has been known for centuries and repeatedly taught to succeeding generations who also produce the same results.

    Now if you want to say that a given individual has variant responses to a particular course of treatment I think just about everyone would agree and has probably had such an experience. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  13. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    Think about this then. I've seen some things that most people wouldn't believe: I've met a psychic who knew EXTREMELY specific things about me. I met a qigong master who was able to CHANGE THE WEATHER. These are pretty serious claims to make, I'm sure. Since I began practicing intensive meditation I've had some VERY interesting experiences of my own.

    This sight is second rate. There's no exchange of information here, just "this art sucks" or people smashing on faith because theirs has run dry.

    You want results? You need to dedicate at least 3 hours every day to meditation. Sublimate your sexual energy. Calm your restless minds and turn angry thoughts upon themselves. Practice austerities and practice your qigong efforts. In a few months of honest practice you will yeild results.

    I remember when I first came here.... I was interested in CMC37 and Wing Chun. All I heard was naysaying and misgiving. There's no support here. Just thought I'd drop a line. Alright now, peace out.

    Don't forget about the power of prayer, y'all. Don't let your wild egos lead you too far from that straight and narrow.
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    1) Cold readers are very good at making you think this - and especially so if you are pre-disposed to believe this phenomena

    2) Weather? there is a million bucks if he can do that waiting for him - let alone a nobel prize and the re-writing of every science book out there to accomodate his skills. His fame and fortune would be off the chart and he could usher in a new eon for humanity by teaching all this wonderful skill and gift

    *tumbleweeds*

    I am not saying you are fibbing, I am saying you were deceived

    3) It is "site" and feel free to leave taking your unverifiable assertions with you

    4) To which deity? You must be specific in your instructions
     
  15. CosmicFish

    CosmicFish Aleprechaunist

    As Hannibal points out, Cold reading is a perfectly ordinary trick that can be learned. Penn and Teller, Derren Brown and James Randi, amongst many others, have done it time and time again and they admit that there is no magic or mysticism involved.

    Claiming that you met a master who could change the weather carries no weight either. Before it can be accepted, it needs to be proven. And, no offence, but if you've already been duped by a cold reader, the most likely explanation in the case of your weather-changing friend is that he or she also duped you.

    There's plenty of information exchange going on here. If you bothered to read the larger of the paragraphs in my post that you quoted, you'd have read about how I came to learn a fair amount about scepticism and critical thinking from MAP. Pretty damn good going for what's essentially a martial arts site, I think! You're right about my faith running dry though. But I think you skipped the part where I explained that it was one of the most wonderfully freeing experiences of my life. One which, still to this day, makes me a happier person. I share my scepticism because I believe it will make others happier too, not because I want to drag other people down.

    Asking us to meditate for 3 hours a day for several months is a common tactic used in similar ways by hucksters as well. Consider the following:

    * A religious "leader" claims that your prayers will be fulfilled if you pray hard enough. You pray hard. Your prayer is not fulfilled. Religious "leader" says you didn't pray hard enough.

    * A dowser tells you that you can find anything with a divining rod so long as you are well enough "attuned". You try very hard to find coins on a beach but fail. The dowser says you weren't attuned well enough.

    * A supplement company says that their bottle of pills will put 30 lbs of muscle on you if you take the pills and follow their custom training routine. You take the pills and train hard at the routine. You gain only 2 lbs of muscle. The supplement company claims you didn't follow the routine properly.

    This also applies to meaningless phrases like: "Sublimate your sexual energy", "Calm your restless minds and turn angry thoughts upon themselves", "Practice austerities and practice your qigong efforts." They're vague phrases that can be thrown out carelessly because they are vague. If you meditate every day for hours at a time over a period of months and get nowhere, well you clearly didn't "sublimate your sexual energy" properly or you didn't "practice your austerities" properly. You've not even defined what kind of results we're supposed to achieve if we are successful either.

    And on that note, some questions, if you don't mind:

    1) Do you meditate for 3 hours a day?
    2) Have you been doing that every day for months?
    3) Are you trying to sublimate your sexual energy and practising austerities?
    4) Can you clearly define the results you expect to achieve from this if you are successful?
     
  16. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    Placebo for sure for most stuff that is lazily applied to chi or the mystical yellow teapot.

    If the 'con' is good enough then the effect can be amazing.

    For me chi is a lazy way of describing things. It's easy to use, I've used it in the past, but it is a lazy term. A fudge. You could just as easily ascribe these feelings to the power of the mystical yellow teapot. You know the one that orbits the sun between Mars and Jupiter. You can't see it? You're not looking hard enough. You'll just have to accept it on faith. I met a master once who could pour tea from the teapot, but he couldn't prove it using the scientific method. Just goes to show what they know.

    The problem with masters of the mystical yellow teapot is that, as they have a 'direct' link and 'deep' understanding of the MYT then, they can charge more for their services.

    It's been a few years since I last posted here because it seemed that the forum threads were 50/50 qi debate/ this art-style-family-village is crap. I come back and nothing has changed. Ho-hum.

    The problem with 'powers' that cannot be verified using the scientific method is just that. No. Proof. Faith is the only answer. The people who shout loudest are the students/disciples of the teacher. The cult of personality is a very strong effect. It can be very stealthy in its effect as well. The extreme is zealotry and there is no arguing with zealots.
     
  17. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    GODAMN TAIJI I LOVE YOUR POSTS!!! they are a constant source of wonder and amusement. He controlled the weather you say.... Do tell me more, was this before or after he shot a lightning bolt from his hand, and levitated up to his flying saucer riding saint bretheren and vanquished the evil lord voldemort and his intergallactic hells angel crew??

    Also if you could draw us a picture that would help.
     
  18. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Every time this chi debate comes up 10 kittens die.
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Probably because they lack chi....
     
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    In a related way, though, aren't any claims, or any sort, suspect?

    For instance what about the ever-revised health announcements on nutrition?

    How about the various prescriptions for weight-loss?

    How about exercise routines?

    Is it just that results are not consistent enough? Is it that results are not quick enough? Is it a matter that issues are not concrete enough? Somewhere along the line I am getting the idea that just as much as there are devote'-s to the worship of CHI generation, there are folks who are willfully closed-minded about the indications.

    Sometime back I remember a discussion on another forum about the paranormal in which the up-shot was that if someone could not willfully produce a paranorma experience on-demand than such things did not exist. I can be as skeptical as the next person, but to hold that a world is constructed of absolutes governed solely by the limits of the HUman five senses tends to strain my own credulity, wouldn't you think?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     

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