Is There Actually Any Evidence to Suggest that Punching With Weights is Bad?

Was reading through another thread where the dangers of punching with weights were discussed, and so rather than derailing the thread, thought I'd start my own.

Now, I don't punch with weights, because I don't actually see any real benefit to it. However, I hear, quite often, people say that it can be detrimental to your elbow joints because of the downward force being applied to the joint/risk of hyperextension etc. Is there actually any empirical evidence to suggest this.

As far as I see it, the danger of hyperextension is always there, and hence, use common sense and don't fully extend your arm. As for the force acting downwards on your elbow, I'm not really sure how much I agree with that. After all, i spar with 16oz gloves, which is relatively heavy, and I've never hurt my elbow joints as a result of using these gloves. Using, lets say a 1kg weight instead of gloves, that's effectively double the weight of the gloves. I understand how this is tiring. However, is it actually dangerous.

As I say, I don't particularly advocate punching with weights, because I don't really see it as useful. But, I would be interested to see any studies that suggest that it is actually dangerous.

 

I like punching with light weights 1.5Kg or 3Kg and rarely 5Kg - I enjoy the workout and my logic, which may be completely wrong from a scientific viewpoint, is that if I can punch fast (and that includes the all important retraction of the punch) whilst holding weights, then I should be even faster when I am empty handed.

But of course like most martial artists I do a lot of things BECAUSE I WANT TO

 

^^

What Robert said...

 

i think the fear is that people who havent learnt proper technique will punch badly with weight and therefore are prone to hyper extending with weight and speed which is very dangerous

 

Thanks guys. What Im really looking for though, is real, quantifiable data. I'm a firm believer in researching a subject rather than taking it as a given based on what has been said by others. The point Im trying to make really is that there are a lot of people who say that it is potentially hazardous to one's elbow joints. However, for all anyone knows, this could just be another training myth. So is there any empirical evidence that anyone knows of to suggest either way. I just don't like the idea of people advising others that this is right or this is wrong based on assumptions made without any real evidence to back it up. Just out of curiosity really.

 

its more common sense.

theres studies that have been done on the effects of hyper extension with similar movements like the bench press.
imagine putting a guy who has never benched on to the bench and getting him to lift as quickly as possible without any advice on technique.
thats the exact same thing as weighted gloves on a n00b

 

I'm not sure that is necessarily the same thing. The claim that Im trying to get to the bottom of is that the downwards force acting about the elbow joint can be detrimental to the joint. With regards to hyperextension, yes that is a matter of technique, and so I get where you're coming from with your aalogy. However, with regards to the force acting on the elbow being detrimental, it doesn't really apply, as the bench press follows a relatively natural course for the shoulder/pectoral muscles (when done correctly of course).

 

OH okay.

hmm.. that is a wonder as there are variations of armbars that work in this way.

i would have thought that muscular tension involved in the punch would protect the joint from gravity

 

I would be interested to see if anyone has produced a study on this.

I've never advocated it myself and it always seems like a case of trying to combine activities by drilling punches and light strength work together. It's not a great way to do strength work and your technique has to change to avoid hyperextension and counter the extra down force so it doesn't to either particularly well. Better sticking to strength work for strength and punching drills for technique.

 

Yeah I was told punching with weights was not good on the joints but in practice it seems to not be completely true depending on the angle of the movements and how heavy the weights are.

IMHO, if you are using gravity (vertical to the ground) to aid in the exercise then weights are good, but if you are punching parallel to the ground, then the weights aren't helpful and could lead to problems.

For example, punching at a downward angle (low punch) into a squat uses gravity as an aid and so helps to build strength. Punching at an upward angle (uppercut) also uses gravity and so helps to build strength.

On the other hand, punching straight away from the body, parallel to the ground, seems to not use gravity and instead puts the strain on the back and shoulders, maybe even promoting leaning.

So weights help with the vertical component of strikes, but the components that are parallel to the ground, not so helpful and maybe bad to do.

This is just in my experience and opinion.

 

In terms of actual studies... my guess (after much looking through databases).. there aren't any. I've spent an inordinate amount of time going through databases like JStor and others trying to find studies that are martial arts focused and come up with next to nothing. If they are there... it's usually TKD related. I can't say I've ever found one on punching with weights.

I've seen it done in gyms everywhere... not saying it's right but just that it's common. Mostly as a form of conditioning for the shoulders and the core. I like it as an exercise in between rounds on a conditioning phase... continuous alternate overhead presses. Again the idea is not that you're going for strength but conditioning... which would be strength endurance. The core you say? Yes the core... you can't fire a cannon from a canoe... so if you core isn't up to it... that's what will fatigue first... whether you understand that or not.

Guys going full out punching with 5lb weights doesn't really seem to make much sense. Locking out the elbow is also a no-no for obvious reasons... but 1-2lb weights while shadow boxing is a staple of the boxing world. Much of that is also about moving around under load and conditioning the core and the legs and the lumbo-pelvic hip complex... especially on a punch like the upper cut.

Just holding your guard with weights and working foot work drills holds a lot of benefit for being able to keep your guard up while boxing.

But like anything using it effectively would have to be part of an overall periodized program. Given what I see so many people using as a program these days... I don't really hold out that it's ever put to much proper use. In terms of the axis of pull being vertical... this isn't quite what most people think it is... as yes gravity is at play... but gravity is always there anyone... so whether you have an 8oz, 12oz glove on or a 3lb weight... then you will always have that element. Gravity is the constant. So it's not nearly out there wrecking joints and bequeathing tendinitis on everyone as it's often put forth. If you start going stupidly heavy for this then yes you might run into some issues... but in most gyms I haven't really seen this at all.

It does run the risk of rotator cuff damage if not done with some caution... but then does just about everything in gym that requires you to use the arm/upper body. So if you're not pre-habbing that rotator cuff you will be rehabbing it. Not a question of IF but a question of WHEN.

Ages ago I posted a rather lengthy post on whether or not kicking pads or heavy bags really increases the bone density in your shins - which is one of the most oft stated things on forums regarding conditioning and training. Even after all the study I'd done on the subject and years of fighting and training myself I couldn't really come to a solid conclusion - beyond anecdote. Conclusive, peer reviewed scientific evidence is non existent.

I'll challenge anyone to prove otherwise. I use shin conditioning like pads and bags and have done so for years... but has it really improved the bone density of my shins beyond where they were at just after my post-pubescent growth spurt? I can't say. I don't think anyone can. I don't think even science has ever really considered the subject.

If you have any information or are well versed enough - then by all means please post up what you've got. Be forewarned it's a subject that requires a heavy duty nomenclature that most people on forums simply aren't up for.

 

What I was taught with regard to this is that you don't punch the same way you would when actually fighting or shadow boxing but rather more slowly (you remove the snap from the punches). The reason is that you're focusing on proper alignment and coordination while punching. The weight lets you feel the structure and timing so that all the motions in all the proper spots start and end together.
If the arm precededs the body for example the weight is carried too much by the shoulder while extended/extending and you can feel the shoulder carry the weight, or if the hip starts ahead of the arm you also feel it in the shoulder but you feel the shoulder opening instead of carrying the weight. If you do it properly the weight of the weight in your hand is actually carried throughout the entire body while the weight is in motion. The actual weight you choose to use depends on largely shoulder strength as you have to be able to control the weight at full extension when it is not moving.

If you practice properly in this way you won't hurt yourself, you'll actually reduce injuries from punching associated with bad timing/structure and improve your power from coordinated body movement.

 

I should have clarified - The bit I'm referring to there is specifically to the conditioning of the shins and the increase in bone density due to shin conditioning.

But... as for what you suggested... yes there are many theories and many anecdotes on the subject of punching with weights. But... as far as I'm aware there are zero actual studies on the subject. Unless you've come across one... I've looked for several years now and not come across anything.

 

You likely will never find any case studies and considering the possible harm to the participants good luck with true experimental info.
Although I guess we could use monkeys!

 

*COUGH* I need a project for my dissertation research in 2 years time *COUGH*

 

Zaad I have more research ideas (biological and psychological) than all of the departments at the University of Toronto could shake a stick at. Get at me in 2 years when you need ideas and I guarantee I can find you at least one.