Is the Takamatsuden one big cult???

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Why thank you:)

    Years ago I wrote a post on that very topic. I think its fair that back in the 1970s that Hatsumi did not have all this mastered in fact I have heard that the reason that Hatsumi got the Grandmastership not because he was the only one (we know there were others) or that he was the best, but he was the right age. The other students were getting on in years. Maybe this is why only a few years ago Hatsumi said that he felt that he had now earned the title of grandmaster.

    Yes what exactly is that Amatsu Tatara material. Something i'm not convinced about.

    Heres hoping
     
  2. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    In publication? What magazine or newspaper did you read that in? It is funny that you want to make very specific statements without revealing your sources? If they are good and credible sources, surely there would be no problem with being more open. You sound like Antony Cummins, except that eventually he does put the documents he has on display(in a fashion anyway) so people can judge for themselves where he draws his (usually mistaken) conclusions.

    Yes, the ninja ryu were based on Kukishin and blah blah blah. We hear about this letter a lot, but let's look at the actual ryu and ryugi. Show where you see an parent/child relationship with Kuki/Takagi ryu and Gyokko ryu or Koto or Togakure. Where do you see Shinden in the Dakentaijutsu or Kukishin? To say he wrote about maybe doing x but trying to make the jump that he actually did x is the problem these kinds of arguments have.

    Gyokko ryu's history? You mean lineage? Either way, show that it is based on anything from Kuki or other arts.

     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Yeah, because logic...:rolleyes:

    Sorry Sherlock but that's not what Will said.

    Again, where did you learn math(s for the Brits)? You really think that is how little time he spent visiting his teacher? Based on what again? Oh, secret publications...

    Each school has a different amount of kata, the biggest being Kukishin and Takagi. This is pretty easy to check.

    So, why assume that your assumption for the amount of time spent is correct? Did you ever ask Hatsumi sensei how often he went to visit his teacher?

    Findings based on what? Hard to take anything you say seriously without a little more to go on. If I tell you something about the ryu or history, even I can say more than that without giving away my anonymity.
     
  4. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Not taking sides on this one way or the other but asking someone a question like this when they have a vested interest in the answer that answer will always be highly suspect.
     
  5. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    PR,

    He/she is back. Again with only questions and not contributing anything of real value or assisting with some content. I will attach a small portion of one of the Tokyo Sports articles from the early 60's. Many of them have interesting content but this one has some interesting and it may shut PR up about evidence....doubtful. It has numbers in it as well....maybe a start for some more maths.


    Ok, I tried to add this very small image on here as JPG and later as Word file but not go on both. Says upload failed. So I put it on my Yoshin Dojo Facebook page here:
    https://www.facebook.com/yoshin.doj...260155114090/1750439765196127/?type=3&theater

    If this link doesn't work as well just look for it on FB at Yoshin Dojo. It is article that relates to this discussion. If someone can snag it off here and get upload feature to work have at it.

    So what kind of questions will PR come up with now?

    Regards,
    Joe King
    Yoshin Dojo

     
  6. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    PR, my new friend!
    I will ask you the same thing....Please share with us one dated item that shows the existence of the ryuha before Takamatsu not including KSR or TYR. Should be easy as you still have a couple hand fulls. Maybe an old scroll or lineage chart or possibly a menkyo etc.

    Thing is myself and several of my friends search for these kinds of things all over Japan. None of us have really came up with anything. We all have interest in them but nada. I have a pretty sizeable collection of makimono, densho etc, some purchased, some earned but to date nothing on these other ryuha. I have found some very old items on Takagi Ryu including items from Mizuta, Ishitani, Ishizaki, Yagi etc. All pre Takamatsu also. But strangely nothing on many of the other ryu including the Amatsu Tatara material that predates Takamatsu. Today may be my lucky day....hopefully you can help.

    Give us a little sample, won't you? No questions, just what makes them historically valid for you. Don't get me wrong, some of the techniques are wicked effective but that isn't the point.

    Regards,
    Todd
    Yoshin Dojo


     
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Nice try. Still no logic...

    So now you want me to join FB just to see your "proof?" Surely you can do better. Seems like attachments work for everyone else, you could make a pdf of it or whatever. Sorry, not biting. If you want everyone to take it seriously, post it here.

    Again, nice try! You failed to deal with the problem of your maths(like that the article is from the early 60s, when did Takamatsu sensei die again?), but try to change the subject. You eve talked with Kacem? Ever researched the Kuki family? Doesn't seem so.

    Let me restate that, in case you missed it. Show how any of the ryu you believe were created by a mixture of Kuki or Takagi or whatever actually were. Name the kata or writings or anything that show this to make any kind of logical sense. You ignored this request in my previous post, now is your chance to address it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
  8. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Tone down the petty sniping comments folks. It does nothing to help your arguments.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
  9. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Here you go
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    So Tokyo Sports was published in English? So where exactly did Takamatsu sensei write that Hatsumi sensei continued that visitation schedule up until his death? Still haven't heard any logical arguments that any of the other ryu were created by mixing the big two...
     
  11. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    No, Tokyo sports was printed in Portuguese but I translated that article to fit my agenda. I posted something, but have a feeling if I post the original as well you will ask another question.

    But, here we have some of the guys being discussed stating something similar to what Will said...a visit about every 3 months. Not my math, it is in the article.

    The Kukishinden Zensho has section regarding a few of Takamatsu's letters. One stating that he would create a new school called Chosui ha based upon the teachings of SFR, TYR and KSR. Seems good enough for me and is another source of to use for this discussion. I do remember Togakure Ryu ninjutsu being listed in the back of the Kukishinden Zensho in Hatsumi's writing, not sure of connection but it is there. There are other ryu as well that aren't talked about...apparently Takamatsu was soke of them as well and gave them to others. Not sure if Hatsumi sensei received them but others did. These schools also have similar traits as the current schools....no historical traces of them prior to Takamatsu.

    Still waiting for anything regarding the other 9 or so ryu...surely you have something that won't reveal your identity.

    Best,
    Todd
    Yoshin Dojo
     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Posting the original would be appropriate, you post the original and any translation so people can see you don't have any hidden agendas. No, Will did not say that. Maybe you should reread his post. You extrapolated that this schedule did not change over the 15 years he trained with Takamatsu sensei, again without showing any proof.

    Again, show any proof(evidence, a good logical reason to take the conjecture seriously, something, anything) of a connection between "Chosui ha" and any of the ninjutsu ryu.

     
  13. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    The issue about the time is this. Even if it were every day for 15 years it is a bit of a stretch to think someone could get a grasp on all the material that exists. I don't think there is disagreement about the large amounts of data in many of the ryu. The ryu, at least two of them that can be somewhat validated historically, are totally different beasts as well.

    So if it is a stretch to learn 9 ryu or more in a full 15 years how does that change when looking at less time....according to Hatsumi and Takamatsu both, sometimes significantly less (1 visit in 3 months).

    I added something for show and tell....you should at least reciprocate, PR. No questions or pointed discourse. Just post something of value or interest, possibly about the other ryu.

    Thanks,
    Joe King
    Yoshin Dojo
     
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I think you have two different issues. One, how good was Hatsumi sensei at both learning, understanding, and performing the arts? How did that understanding/performance change over time? From the old training videos it was pretty obvious that he was lacking in many aspects of performance and probably understanding. Howeve, it is hard to deny that he is a martial genius, so his ability to learn and improve over time is probably markedly different from the norm.

    The other issue is with your assumptions about time spent. You cannot extrapolate forward from an article from the early 60s without proof or any other reason to assume that things stayed static. Hatsumi sensei's words deny that this was the case, and martial genius or not logic would cause you to consider your assumption as well.

    As for the ninjutsu arts being made up concoctions or mixtures of the big two, there again is no logical reason to believe that this is the case. If you have studied and practiced any of the arts to any level of depth, you will see that it is a silly argument. If getting a better understanding of where your argument has holes in it doesn't seem to be of value or worth to you, I don't know what to tell you. This isn't quid pro quo, and I am not playing show and tell. You sound like a particular candidate for President right now. If you have a misunderstanding on what the arts are and what principles they teach(and how they differ from other arts in the Takamatsuden), then historical arguments will get you nowhere. Again, I ask if you've ever talked to Kacem?

     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
  15. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    Well you've called me Antony Cummins and now Donald Trump...not playing nice are you?

    I ask you to post something to back your claims but you insult me....although you ask for the same. Not sure what your deal is.

    Again, be interesting to lay some cards on the table to see what your "depth" of understanding is. The fact you hide your identity is interesting. Be even more telling to meet and discuss your depth of understanding. Do you have any licensing in ANY of the schools? Dan levels don't count.

    Best,

    Joe King
    Yoshin Dojo



     
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not calling you names, just saying your arguments sound similar. Making aspirations about people without backing them up, then posting things that aren't exactly what you claimed to have(actual publications, not an English translation of one article that can't be verified), making illogical jumps to conclusions, yes we've heard that kind of rhetoric before.

    You still haven't dealt with the fact that you cannot show any connection between the ninjutsu ryu, none who come with that line of argument ever do. Just claims about letters to the Kuki family.

    My background has been discussed before, you can believe what you want. The question comes when you make claims about Hatsumi sensei and his relationship with Takamatsu sensei or claims about the ryu themselves. So far you have done a bad job of proving your claims. It's nothing personal, just that your claims with lack of credible evidence makes you sound like someone with an agenda. If you have one that's fine, just come out and state it so you don't have to keep playing coy. If you had proof of what you claim, there would be no reason not to just lay it out on the table from the beginning. It would go a long way to prove the detractors of the Xkans who have been at it for years. However, we just get more of the same old poor logic, poor research, poor premises. I'm sorry if your feelings are hurt, but I call it like I see it. Feel free to ignore my points as I'm just some anonymous guy(or gal) who could be living in Delhi in his grandma's basement.

    ps-and I should add that I'm not going to be divulging any information that would give away my identity, so asking is just a waste of your time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
  17. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    PR, research it yourself, I pointed you in the right direction. Tokyo sports are of the public arena, one that anyone has access to.

    I have been a lucky guy in my few years of training. No agenda as I also practice Takamatsu den. However, I look at a lot of the information out in the wild with logic not as a cult member. I mentioned that his training was a lot less than every weekend over the 15 years, and voila, there appears an excerpt of the very men in question saying just that. Not saying that it was static etc however it does show it was less than every weekend.

    Kukishinden zensho is a bit expensive but it does have some points regarding our discussion about Takamatsu creating his own art. It is also easy to discover that other people received Takamatsu's ryuha...more than what we probably all know.

    I also mentioned earlier about Togakure Ryu being in the "kukishinden" Densho which was penned by Hatsumi. There is a connection. Kukishinden zensho has discussions of the Ryuko no maki, Ryusen no maki which includes similar items to Togakure ryu. I think one shihan even said the contents were identical.

    SFR has kuden after the kaiden level that are identical to the kuden from TYR ryu as well. Not one or two mind you.....

    A few of the schools in Japan have items from Takamatsu himself and they can show that he didn't receive kaiden. He only received middle level licensing at their dojo.....then later he was said to have kaiden.
    If you can read Japanese this chart clearly shows that.

    http://takagiryu.com/d_keizu.htm

    Who is telling the truth? Who knows...but point is the information is out there and a lot of it stacks against Takamatsu and some of the schools that popped up later. Are all of these sources conspiring against Takamatsu and his schools?

    Yet another public source that shows something negative regarding Takamatsu and I accept that....I still practice his arts. However I am open enough to see all these resources as evidence in a bigger picture. Takamatsu was a man...he was only a supernatural being to those that followed him in this way.

    I feel Takamatsu was similar to someone like Rickson Gracie, many look to him as a supernatural being but I see him as a human with superb grappling ability based upon his very hard training and strong spirit.

    With these source popping up you can see it is quite easy to paint a picture but I will allow you to do the same with some of the other ryuha. Pick just one if you like....It is not merely a challenge in negative light, but something I have genuine interest in. This challenge has been issued for quite some time now by others in martial arts community and has yet to be fulfilled. PR, you speak as if you could actually be one of Hatsumi's original shihan but yet don't provide anything to support your defense. Help us all out if you really have that connection and depth.

    You also didn't answer anything about your licensing in the ryu you know much about. Nothing personal, just curious why you have such strong opinions on the subject at hand.

    I feel no one else is contributing to this thread. You should take my advice and take this to PM, maybe create a fake email account so as not to expose yourself so we don't have to bother everyone here.

    Regards,
    Joe King
    Yoshin Dojo


     
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Bothering people here? Odd way to put it. I did pen this thread, and people can read or ignore it as they like. The mods can also close it if they think it's unproductive. Having said that, let's address your points again.

    You claimed to have proof in the form of publications, you have not posted any publications, you put something up on Facebook that somebody posted here on your behalf. Instead of an original publication, it was what was claimed to be an English translation. Same with the Kuki Zensho. What pages, or show the text. You talk about letters and on and on but again we get no proof.

    Again, there is no reason to believe that Hatsumi sensei's schedule stayed at what was written about in the early 60's publication(if indeed that is what it said). On top of that, it is illogical in the extreme to assume that it did unless you have further proof. Hatsumi sensei himself said that it was not the case, so again if you have a way to disprove his account, you are more than welcome to share it with the public.

    Show how the kata in any of the ninjutsu ryu seem related to the Kuki or Takagi ryu. I didn't ask you about SFR and a connection to Takagi, I said show how the ninjutsu ryu were a compilation or influenced by the big two ryu in our system. Still nothing. Hatsumi sensei wrote something in a scroll so there's a connection does not cut it. Unless you have the scroll and can scan it and have discussed why it is written the way it is with Hatsumi sensei, you are guessing.

    You have posted a bunch of hearsay and assumptions but nothing of substance. Are there issues with the lineages of some of the ryu? Absolutely. Were there other issues involving personalities and things not related to martial skill? Why wouldn't there be, these kinds of things happen in almost every art. Are there inconsistencies? Sure, no argument there.

    However, does that suddenly mean that everything besides the Kukishin and Takagi material that can be verified outside the Takamatsuden was concocted?
    Nope, not unless you can prove it.

    So again, you haven't shown any evidence to your original points about the ninjutsu ryu, just hearsay and hyperbole. That does not equate to good research.

    ps-on the site you linked, it claims that he left the dojo after chu gokui. So?...What exactly does that mean to you? Has that been verified personally by yourself? There are a myriad other questions that arise as well. That is what research entails. Not just finding something and regurgitating it. You have to understand what something means, it's ramifications, and why the information is being put out there in the first place. Then you have to examine those who are putting the information out there and if there are any agendas behind it. I don't buy everything Hatsumi sensei says just because he is the leader of my organisation, nor do I automatically buy everything out there that is disparaging because it comes from outside the organisation. Publications and people's assertions aren't always impartial or unbiased, and having lived in Japan for awhile, you soon find what each groups bias is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
  19. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    PR,

    I do have the copies of the original articles, I do have copies of the densho I refer to, I do have copies of Takamatsu's original items but won't be posting them. You want me to scan the actual document and post on web for you, I bet you do....go get it or earn it yourself. If you don't believe what is posted that is on you. IF you want to meet up in person....I will bring some of them and show them to you. You can wear a mask if you want but at least bring some of your earned items that show your authority to represent the schools in question.

    The Takagi link I sent is up on their site currently. It isn't good enough either? I didn't translate that site, so you can see it for yourself. The kukizensho is also still available and I have heard there is a shoddy translation going around for the last 10 years or so.

    By the evidence we have of Takamatsu, I would say it is pretty certain he has created his own ryu and they were based upon things he already did. We could beat the ninjutsu thing to death as it has been already by more scholarly people without conclusion (ie no proof being found). You have a chance to prove all of that here and now. Scan your densho and post them here. lol Looks silly typing it!

    Regards,
    Joe King


     
  20. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    Just seen you actually looked at the site. Yes, actually I have verified it. A more important question...have you? You immediately throw out they may have an agenda. :) So myself and the Tokyo sports article, Kuki Zensho and Takagi site all have a negative agenda against Takamatsu? Seems to be because it doesn't fit your current beliefs.

    As I said, many other schools kept records of these things as well. Now it is possible that Takamatsu got the Ishiya line from someone else later but not according to them. He only received the chugokui, a middle level license. So does it not seem strange that it is said he had kaiden from Ishitani and here is says middle level? Doesn't it seem strange that the history of several of the schools is lacking and there is proof of him wanting to create his own school.

    There is more, it gets better but you haven't addressed what has been presented thus far.

    Joe King


     

Share This Page