Is the Takamatsuden one big cult???

That was one of the things that kind of never sat right with me about the Genbukan, the complete exclusion of Hatsumi sensei from all mention, despite his, let's face it, massive influence on the Genbukan's primary schools. It's almost as if Tanemura sensei kept adding schools in order to minimize said influence; there were probably 20 ryuha spread across Ninpo, Jujutsu, bo, sword, Chinese martial arts, Koryu Karate, Goshinjutsu, Amatsu Tatara, it was a little overwhelming.

 

An assortment of Takamatsu's lineage documents including ryuha densho and diaries. Ones you aren't aware of by the way you speak. Again, I was shocked to find out that Takamatsu wasn't some secret ninja type figure in the Kansai area....just about everyone I asked knew of him or knew someone that knew him directly or actually trained with him. Many of these same people still had some of his original documents or direct knowledge of his martial exploits. It was interesting to hear some of the stories from people outside of the xkan.

Again, I don't know much about Tanemura but you continue to reference him. I think his approach was actually a good one. He, like Hatsumi and many others, sought after what Takamatsu taught. He felt another way to do this was to seek anyone that actually spent time with Takamatsu over the years and he ended up finding so many people that were SOKE of the various ryuha which also existed in the bujinkan. How this happens i am not sure but the documentation is there. Some even had different versions, more material than what is sometimes shown in the xkan. Maybe he sought another way to validate his skills or maybe he wanted to gather all he could about Takamatsu after meeting him....who knows! But I think his approach was a good one overall. I would enjoy seeing all that collected and learned from these other students. Again, we should also keep in mind that Tanemura, like many of Hatsumi sensei earlier students, was a pretty tough guy overall. He received kaiden in some of the ryuha, which is far more than most, if not all, would receive these days. With this in mind it would be pretty easy for him to meet an old student of Takamatsu and receive any additional teachings they learned from him.

Thing is, if your only perspective is what people are telling you within the organization you are part of.....there could be and probably is more! If you refuse to believe that then you are only fooling yourself. ;-)

Todd
Yoshin Dojo

 

You read these assorted documents in Japanese and have copies? I am aware that Takamatsu sensei taught a large number of people, this isn't a rare or particularly interesting fact as regards martial arts masters. Nothing shocking or awe inspiring. The fact that I was discussing is that the person whom Tanemura sensei had a long and well documented relationship is not credited while people who are dead and cannot speak to the discussion are mentioned at length.

Nobody is knocking Tanemura sensei's skill, just his story. Hatsumi sensei was a direct deshi of Takamatsu sensei, Tanemura sensei was his student. This is one difference between Hatsumi sensei and Tanemura sensei for example. So going from learning under Ueno sensei to Takamatsu is not the same thing either.

There are only so many skills, ryu, and different kinds of arts one person can master, the proof is in the performance. My perspective is drawn from people who had a long term relationship with Tanemura sensei and who saw some of the things he did when he broke off from his teacher Hatsumi sensei, as well as conversations I've had over the years with Genbukan students and others outside the Booj.

There is a lot in the schools that comprise the Bujinkan that even high dan ranks don't know, as well as a lot of things that Hatsumi sensei can do but nobody seems able to. Interesting that, but interesting, telling, and important are three different things. Having spent some time with people who practice related ryu outside of our organisation, it is interesting to see the differences and know what they mean.

 

Sato Kinbei aside, I think its important to remember the influence of Masaji Kimura on Tanemura Sensei who he received Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu from that was one of Takamatsu Sensei's oldest students.

Even though Kimura Sensei was older and yes he has passed away now, there was a lot of physical exchange between them that is well documented not only between them but also several students of the Genbukan that met Kimura Sensei in person, there relationship was more than documents and paper work.

 

Gentlemen,

Fudoshin brings up a related point. It is interesting that the older style of Bojutsu and Kenpo that is still used within Takatsuka's group of Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho is what Takamatsu sensei taught during his earlier years. This can be seen in Kimura sensei line as well as other lines. Not just in documentation but in physical practice as well. The "bikenjutsu" seems to be a newer creation and doesn't resemble the older practice of Kuki bo and sword in any way.

PR, I would be glad to continue our discussion regarding licensing and documentation of Takamatsu privately as I don't know who you are. If you would like to discuss these topics more then feel free to contact me at Yoshindojo.com.

I would agree with you on the statement regarding Hatsumi sensei, aside from the politics, he is a very skilled martial artist with things many doesn't know he has.

I will take your approach now, which related ryu in other orgs? You mean with other xkan or the ryuha related AND outside the xkan? This is important as to your earlier point, even if you train with someone in another kan it would all originally stem from Hatsumi sensei.

Regards,
Todd Schweinhart
Yoshin Dojo

 

What doe s a lot mean? How do you quantify that? A lot of money might be a million dollars to some, a billion to others. So there are videos of them training together, hundreds of letters, and other forms of documentation that you have personally witnessed? Cool, because Hatsumi sensei also took his students to meet his teacher before he passed away.

Beyond that, how can you show influence? Was there a marked change or improvement in Tanemura sensei's understanding and ability in the arts after this new training? These are the kinds of questions that need to be answered or at least deeply contemplated before making pronouncements. However, as one half of the party is no longer on this Earth to give an answer, it makes for a pretty limited discussion.

Hi Todd, Reality. Now you know who I am(or you might've already and just not been aware of the fact). You do realise there is a PM function on this site? If you want to discuss something outside of the forum, that is the easiest way to do so. My approach? You mean going to Kansai(I mean Kobe)?

 

Guys,

PR, still not sure who you are. But don't feel comfortable giving you additional information as well so it is what it is. Looking over this last post you don't really answer anything asked of you....you simply ask more questions. Maybe your answers would be a bit telling.

Truth is you could add Hatsumi sensei name in your questions to Fudoshin and it would also be relevant. Do we know if there was a change in Hatsumi when moving to Ueno to Takamatsu....well both have passed....see, same thing can be done. Maybe Hatsumi was much better before meeting Takamatsu....point is it is kind of silly. One thing to look at is if Tanemura's movement has changed since his time with Hatsumi. Seeing the recent release of the small excerpt of the Takamatsu footage which was usually shown at Taikai etc it appears Hatsumi's movement has also improved. But again, it isn't really that important.

PR, so you have trained in Kobe, or at least been? Care to share any more details about your comparisons with related ryu and which ones there were? Kobe was once full of related arts and branches, some directly from Takamatsu but would have depended on when you went and whom you trained with. Care to elaborate? You can contact me via PM as well since you are aware of the feature.

Todd
Yoshin Dojo

 

Guess you don't understand how anonymity works...:dunno:

Outside of the Takamatsuden in related arts. I obviously can't go into too much detail but if you don't feel comfortable discussing this topic in a public forum, then you should not. Obviously, there was a marked improvement in Hatsumi sensei's ability from the time the training videos of him and Takamatsu sensei, but nobody is questioning how much he learned from his master. At least I don't hear anybody doing so. 15 years of extensive training, correspondence, correction, etc has a way of silencing the questioners. Likewise, Hatsumi sensei never denied that he was Ueno sensei's student(for 3 years), so there you go.

It's interesting that you wanted to discuss this issue but really don't, that's fine(this thread was originally about cults in the Takamatsuden) too, but nobody is begging you for information(why I mentioned that you could PM me if you wanted to discuss this offline, I have no need to PM you in this case) so feel free to bow out whenever you see fit.

Here's kind of the point, listen to what Hatsumi sensei says and you will understand a lot(when in doubt, always go back to Koku):

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZxbqFGCZjc"]Hatsumi Masaaki – Kokū (Sweden Tai Kai 1990) - YouTube[/ame]

 

This is a rather interesting discussion. But maybe things are the other way around. My teacher once told me that the tenshin hyoho (which I also studied with a non-Xkan teacher for a bit) were devised by Takamatsu sensei on the request of the Kuki family to restore their martial knowledge which had been lost. It was a combination of takagi yoshin ryu Jujutsu and Kukishin Bojutsu. If you look at the way the transmission goes in Hatsumi sensei's proper students, and look at the videos of him being taught by Takamatsu, it makes sense. There is a certain looseness, flow in there that is not present in many Koryu in the way they are practiced nowadays. I was told that Takamatsu absorbed Kukishin ryu after he had learned the ninpo related arts and this affected his understanding of what he learned afterwards. It may be possible that he gave the Kuki family a set of kata that are part of a section of the ryuha, but not, say, his own transmission.

Kind regards, Tom

 

thanks

 

Interesting also to note that the mention of the Ninpo related ryu-ha were not mentioned until a few years prior to Hatsumi Sensei training with Takamatsu Sensei(Ueno also studied them). For example there is no mention of these schools with the earlier students.

There is also the well known letter where Takamatsu Sensei requested to teach, "Kukishin Ryu Ninpo" to the Kuki family.

There is a possibilty that Kukishinden Ryu Happo Bikenjutsu as well as Tenshin Hyoho were variant Kukishin ryu branches reorganized by Takamatsu Sensei.

 

Really, you like hiding it seems. There aren't too many groups outside of Takamatsuden so I guess that gives us an idea. Makes me think of other schools like Masaki Ryu that Hatsumi sensei also studied. Do you have any idea of what that is? Have you ever been exposed to it?

I have to disagree on your statement....many aren't questioning the training because many don't know. I am pretty certain it wasn't 15 years of training...correspondence was there and of course training as well...but Takamatsu said differently in publication. Nothing against Hatsumi here as I have already said he is an incredible martial artist but his trips were a bit less frequent than what everyone states.

It is also true that many of the ryuha weren't mentioned early on as was stated by Fudoshin (another guy hiding in the shadows...what is it with you ninjers?)...There is evidence that these ryuha didn't come about until later and also were created by Takamatsu. There are still letters around, some were referrenced in Kukishinden Zensho regarding Takamatsu wanting to create his own art mixing his art with karate and jujutsu to compete with Judo. It later said something regarding him adding TYR SFR and KSR all together to create the "chosui ha". This is probably what most in xkan call Kukishinden ryu Daken but is actually recorded in densho as Kijin Chosui Ryu Dakentaijutsu. He passed it to several people after its creation including Hatsumi sensei. I have seen it recorded together with the weapons in a densho titled Kukishinden for the xkan but the taijutsu was usually given separately from Takamatsu to most.

PR, the only reason I offered to PM was I was going to discuss with you the original references I was using regarding Takamatsu. I was going to hint that I am using source material written by the man himself so that I could better understand your resources....but I think I know what your resources are now....15th dan and hearsay. Correct? ;-)

Let's not delve into the history of Gyokko Ryu and others in this forum. They have been beaten to death and didn't fair well over the history debates.

Regards,
Todd
Yoshin Dojo

 

Which publication by Takamatsu sensei are you referring to? And what exactly did he say?

I think (and I might have things mixed up) that Hatsumi sensei at one point, during Takamatsu sensei's lifetime, said that he visited with his master about every three months. From what I've heard, that is true. At that specific moment in time. Other times, other years, their encounters were more frequent. Sometimes even less, who knows? During a span of 15 years, I don't think anybody expects "ever weekend" to mean that literally, but more generally. It would be bothersome to say: "yes, between 19XX and 19XX, I went there three times a week, between 19XX and 19XX I was there one day a week, with the exception of March 6 when I had to... and then between 19XX and...".

The sheer amount of private correspondence and incredibly detailed written transmission that Hatsumi sensei received (often several times a week – but again, don't take that literally), should put to rest any kind of speculation regarding what kind of a relationship they had. Unlike the written transmission only relationships that Takamatsu sensei had with people like Satō Kinbei and Ueno Takashi. (Nobody – least of all Hatsumi sensei – disputes his relationship with Kimura Masaji, Akimoto Fumio, etc.)

Your agenda against the Takamatsu-den is nothing new, Todd. Your views won't change no matter what arguments are presented. Perhaps it's better if you just keep doing the stuff you do (under secret teachers that you refuse to name), and let others do the same?

 

ToddSchweinhart posted

OK first off I have no dog in this race. Sure I practice Bujinkan, and was in the Genbukan for a number of years and a group leader, but just wondering about your comment in bold above, because you keep talking about references and source material, so let be clear on this. You have seen primary source material i.e. Denshos written by Takamatsu or other of his students i.e. Kimura, Kinbei etc?

Just wondering because what has been posted above in relation to Takamatsu wanting to teach Kukishinden Ryu Ninpo, and Kijin Chosui Ryu can all be found in Tanemuras Tatara Magazine. Theres a lengthy article on this.

So if your source is simply this magazine written by Tanemura then all you have is a case of Tanemuras word against Hatsumis. Hope that isn't the case as i'm very interested in the history of these arts no matter what, but just everytime I read your comments about Takamatsu the magazine keeps popping into my head.

Can you without giving any content list your sources?

Thanks

 

.. and bringing it back to the OP, monarchies are definitely cultish. :hail::ninja2:

Worst case scenario for me (I'm Bujinkan):

Takamatsu Sensei / Hatsumi Sensei fabricated lineages, history, techniques etc
This makes them collectively freaking geniuses.

Best case scenario:
The Ryhuha history is accurate, the techniques evolved from actual experienced shinobi, samurai, farmer-warriors what-have-you and the DNA currently in Japan is the latest evolution

Most probably though, history is fuzzy as a mofo and two interested and earnest guys sucked the marrow out of the skills they actually learned and went with the contemporary climate of systematizing once-disparate skills, traditions, fragmented lore and boom... pulled the Bujinkan out of the hat. Cleverly Soke is pretty good at NOT defining very clearly what is and what isn't "The Truth" and rather seems interested in the whole spirit of the thing propagating out and adapting to its environment. That in itself is fascinating and immediately lends itself to always being mindful of staking claims and coming to the table with sure-fire statements of accuracy. This is Ninpo - a way to navigate a fight, a war... life! - without dogmatic crap that could lead you to hold onto something and lose.

(sorry about the rant)

 

Guys,

Some good points here.

Will, you're back! You are absolutely wrong! I still study Takamatsu Den, so no agenda against it. You just like to throw that blanket statement out as some of the things I say don't fit with your beliefs. The title of this OP was about cult like behavior so my posts are more directed at the general assumptions of everything although other evidence says otherwise. My views change quite often, Will. But they change based upon new discoveries with logic. If anyone....and I mean anyone including yourself Will, can provide some additional information on some of the other ryuha in xkan that came about later in Takamatsu's teaching history I have an open mind to review it. I would even perhaps be willing to meet to see said documents. We could have show and tell as one of my friends call it. We can both share some interesting things with one another. I think that is pretty fair, wouldn't you agree?

I think your statement about their time training is more in line with what Takamatsu has said...many people state that it was every weekend for 15 years but this is not the case. In addition Takamatsu sensei apparently liked to write, he wrote often to Hatsumi as we have seen the stacks of correspondence, some of us even were lucky enough to get copies of the letters, but Takamatsu also wrote often to other people as well. In some of the earlier correspondence some different things were conveyed compared to what we generally hear discussed. So again, as you usually come up with this Anti Takamatsu rant, I am still very interested in Takamatsu's arts but I am attempting to base my opinion on original sources and not what is generally accepted around the water cooler. But cheers again on your comments about training times during the 15 years, I hope PR reads them as well...whoever he/she is.

Hello Garth, thanks for joining in. Feel free to contact me directly to discuss the sources. I believe I have the articles you were mentioning but those aren't my sources for my statements.

Regards,
Todd
Yoshin Dojo

 

Hi Todd

To be honest like yourself i'm very critical and skeptical, and have taken some stick in the past like yourself for asking questions of the X Kans.

This where the X Kans become cultish, when one asks a question and people jump on you for asking the question. Being Critical and Skeptical is good its healthy, but when the walls go up you know you are questioning cult like mentality.

But anyway that aside, I myself wonder about some of the things taught. Not that its not real, I love the Takamatsuden stuff and currently study Bujinkan however sometimes I question some things and feel that Takamatsu may have put a lot of stuff together under a nice title to make its simpler. For example...

There is Bojutsu and it seems like two lines. Theres the one that is called Sabaki Gata and is comprised of Goho, Ura Goho, Sasshia etc, and then there is the ones that start with Kangi, Saigi, Hakugi Etc. They seem different in their names and organisation. I've even seen the last called Gyokko Ryu Bojutsu by Noguchi. Are these two distinct lines that Takamatsu put together?

Then we have Shinden Fudo Ryu. Jutaijutsu and Dakentaijutsu, and people claim they are the same school, BUT they seem so distinctive to each other, and it appears according to some info out there that they had different founders.

Then theres as already mentioned the Kukishin Ryu Dakentaijutsu, which is more likely Kijin Chosui Ryu and bears some resemblance to Shinden Tatara Ryu, which according to Tanemura the three hanbo kamae came from (Munen Muso, Otonashi and Katayaburi) when they were originally five called by the names Danpi or Sugata rather than kamae.

Then we have at least two forms of sword. The ones associated with the Kukishinden i.e. Tsuki Kake, and another set that has Juji, and then of course we have Jojutsu as taught in the Bujinkan and then the stuff that Kiba Koshiro taught and was passed to him by Takamatsu.

Of course we also have two forms of Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Mizuta line and Ishitani Line.

It seems like Takamatsu sensei learnt a wealth of stuff during his lifetime and may for simplicity just lumped much of it together. Nothing wrong with that, its his perogative as he was the grandmaster, but it does sometimes make me wonder if instead of practicing six schools (Missed three out i.e Kumogakure Ryu) we are instead practicing many more.

 

I have black belts in two martial arts over 23 years of training. It seems that most martial arts are cult like, have to stay with one instructor or lose credibility in the art, everyone wants to know your 'lineage'....I left both instructors after being TOLD I had to teach once I reached first dan. I just wanted to train, no desire to teach.

 

You raise some very good points "garth".

A lot of stuff learned in a relatively short period of time. Let's look at it like this. If like Will said, Hatsumi went every 3 months and Hatsumi has said he was usually there for one day to train as it took about 1 day each way to travel. Around that time the trains took about 7-9 hours each way from Tokyo area to Osaka. Let's say on occasion he spent an extra weekend down or maybe an extra day. If only 1 day each time that is about 4 days per year or 60 days over 15 years. If we double the number to be fair it equates to about 120 days over a 15 year period. So in reality 15 years equals roughly about 4 months. Now as garth mentioned there are over 9 ryuha....some have well over 100 kata each not including weapons, and in recent times there are all kinds of other things popping up from other schools. Takagi Yoshin Ryu alone has over 200 kata if you include the ura waza and betsuden. Most of you here that train also know that each kata has depth as well. It isn't like learning something 1 time. So as an example in TYR alone, each kata may have 4 to 5 ways to do them based upon the level of the practitioner which puts the number of kata upwards over 500 or so for a single school. This is why so many people think it is nearly impossible to learn more than one ryu properly.

So each school could have between 100 to over 300 kata which gives us about 900 to 2700 kata in 2-4 months. Again, not including weapons, mystical training and all the other sub arts.

Given this and adding some of my personal thoughts that I believe Hatsumi is a very skilled practitioner along with the fact that many of these ryu he may have learned bits of in his short time with Ueno. In addition, everyone should know the practice is of utmost importance. What we learn from our teachers is the model, it is up to us to delve into and explore that model and its lessons which is what Hatsumi did with his earlier students. But that is a lot of learning in such a short amount of time.

It has been stated that there were only 3 arts in Takamatsu's early training which included SFR, TYR and KSR. The rest seemed to have appeared a bit later. To Garth's credit, many of these also took different forms possibly even new names. While still in buj, Manaka Fumio stated that the other sets of bo were from Kukishin Ryu as was the Sabaki gata. He stated that the Sabaki gata were the most advanced of Kukishin Ryu but Hatsumi asked him to teach the Sabaki gata first so around that time most had never heard of "kangi no kata" aka shoden, chuden, okuden until much later. I have never seen them referenced in other lines of Kukishin ryu or TYR either. The kuki bo kata (that were also added to TYR) can at least be traced back to Edo period and we have scrolls from Ishitani sensei (Takamatsu's teacher) but they only show the "sabaki" gata.

When looking at some of the densho regarding Kuki bojutsu much of what we see as additional kata within the xkan appear to actually be from the Amatsu Tatara material. This is certainly true for the bojutsu as left behind by both Takamatsu and Kiba Koshiro, another Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu teacher. As with many of the other ryuha the Amatsu stuff also lacks thorough historical documentation in that most of the newly discovered resources eventually point back to Takamatsu. This is not a "jab" just based upon my findings.

We could address the rest of garths findings as they are very valid points but hopefully some of you guys can contribute with some interesting information without more questions and not feeling attacked by differing opinions.

Regards,

Todd
Yoshin Dojo