is the dan tien real?

For even more fun they did some studies at a university bar a while ago. All of the beer was replaced with non-alcoholic beer without telling the students. Yet people still acted drunk to roughly the same degree.

 

A while back I heard about an experiment where they took 2 groups of seriously ill people. One group was asked to pray and be prayed for regularly by family and friends the other was not. Needless to say the first group showed a marked improvement in health overall. I am not saying that miracles were performed but something was going on.

Now I am not a religious person in the traditinal sense, so I would like to contribute this as some kind of mental positive energy having an effect on these people.

Sorry this is a bit off the thread and my info of this experiment is pretty vague and not 100% on accuracy/authenticity. Just something I remember hearing about and found pretty interesting. Not sure if the above is showing the placebo effect or some kind of manifestation of empty force (healing) or both.The above example could be modified to show one or the other perhaps. Maybe someone out there knows more about this type of thing and has other examples.

 

People who are delusional believe they can fly, but that doesn't mean they can


Tai Gip reckons he has Neo-esque powers...nuff said.

What do you think of the hypogastric plexus thing? It fits well with bioelectricity. I read something recently about chakras, 'seat of soul' and the like, by someone who postulates that they derive from the 'seven plexii', he obviously hasn't studied anatomy as there's a lot more than seven, but there could be something in it.

 

Psychoneuroimmunology (PNI)

I've never taken a pill for anything, not tylenol or antibiotics and im almost 27 years old. and yes i've had many headaches and colds in my life. Rest and positive thinking, along with natural antibiotics found in foods like strawberries, green tea, etc have helped speed recovery up. (of course i know there are extreme conditions where modern drugs are a life saver). I really do believe the same thing that the chinese do, which is all illnesses are caused by energy blocks, and whenever i have a headache i relax and self massage the area(s) in pain until they're 'unblocked' and it works everytime, no sideeffects and its free. If its a tension headache then i stop doin whatever it is thats causing me tension (ie goin to the root of the problem) and if its a general headache i do what they suggest in yoga, which is to invert your head, i dont do a full headstand just something like downward facing dog or a standing forward bend for a few minutes. (btw most headaches are caused by dehydration so it might be the water you're washing your tylenol down with that is all you need for that headache

Ok this is for everyone who posted here.. have you heard of "Psychoneuroimmunology"?? It's a modern science studying how the mind's attitudes and beliefs affect our physical health. Western science now sees that TCM was right on the all these centuries.. Psychoneuroimmunology has found that our mind is constantly communicating with every cell in our body! Google it for more info. (Here's a freebee: http://www.sunzeri.com/pni.htm)

 

Excellent, thanks for the word (never heard it before)! I've found my new career path!!

It's the same with recreational drugs. e.g an active ingredient mixed with many ecstacy pills and acid tabs is strychnine - rat poison, and ketamine is actually horse tranquiliser. The feelings you get is your body going into shock and using extreme measures to flush the poison out of your system before it does any more damage. Some people would call it a "high" but if someone is unaware of being drugged (or panics once they have the drugs) it will be a nightmare experience.

Check out these links:

http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/humannature/article.jsp?id=99994931&sub=The brain

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993861

 

To argue with those who dont believe in "qi" aand aall that is really boring, besides it does not matter. For the record I DO believe in that element, but I also know that belief in "qi" has not prevented loads of boneheads from practicing absolutely terrible "internal" arts.

To make things simple for those who dont reallly get it, if you llook at things purely physiologically; The dantian area is the lower abdomen. In Taijiquan as with all internal arts, there is just very litle to be done that physicallly is not being executed by/originating from the lower abdomen (if one is any good).

M


www.taijigongfu.com

 

I think you mean antioxidants. Taking antibiotics without really needing them is terrible for your immune system when you finally get sick. The organisms simply mutate and the antibiotics no longer have an effect...

 

While those foods i listed are indeed known for their high antioxident content I still meant natural antibiotic and natural antibiotics, especially ones in foods like garlic and honey really are known for strengthening your immune system... theres plenty of info on this on the web

 

This thread is probably old, I know, but I was reading somewhere that bioelectricity does not follow some of the same principles as that of other energy...It seems that "Bioelectromagnetism involves the interaction of ions. Bioelectromagnetism is sometimes difficult to understand because of the differing types of bioelectricity."

Did anyone pick up on the premise that western science itself is full of theories, and yet we live by those in the western world. Did anyone stop to consider that almost every drug prescribed, to fix problems, does not always do as they are supposed to, and or have side effects. The western thought on things is to go after the result of something, rather than search and find what is going on in the complete body. If something is broke, they either cut into it, remove something (including entire organs), or prescribe drugs, or both...

People need to study the history of modern western medicince to see just how barbaric it was, and in some cases, still is...

When one combines both Eastern and Western thought we still have theories floating around, however, it is a more complete set of theories...

Eastern thought at least acknowledges what they do as theory, and is partial to many unknowns, unlike the arrogance of the western medical and scientific worlds...

Eastern thoughts work on the preventive side of things, whereas western thought comes from the opposite direction...

Yin/Yang???


Just some random thoughts...

 

"Eastern thought at least acknowledges what they do as theory"

In science (even as practiced in China) the word theory is very specifically defined, as is law, and hypothesis. it is commonly used "theory of relativity" for example.

"Western" culture and reasoning (those cultures descended from the greeks and europeans? is that a good enough definition) is 'analytic', and has been since sometime after the middle ages. 'Analytic' as in analyze... break things apart and examine the pieces, take the pieces apart, and so on.

'Synthetic' thought examines the world by comparing - synthesis - "this is like that in this aspect, so maybe this is like that in another aspect." Western philosophy and science abandoned that paradigm about 600 years ago and we call the results of that shift "The Renaissance".

I wonder if the concept of "theory" - an idea that is not logically proven to be factual - is not even part of the thinking of TCM philosophy. Theory, proof, etc are western terms. Can anyone shed some light on that?



I'm no historian I just read some books by Umberto Eco - ROFL!

 

Dammit! I had a whole long response typed out and the site went down =\

In abbreviated form, here it is again:

TCM concerns itself with how or why somethign will work. It doesnt concern itself so much with the exact location of this or that, but only what the overall problem is, and how to fix it.
"Theory" definitely does have a place in TCM. TCM has fallen under great scrutiy over the last 40 years from the field of biomedicine (the CORRECT term for Western medicine). Because of this, TCM has been tested, evaluated and studied by nations across the world, including the US and China, in an analytic laboratory setting, over and over and over again. While some of the testing is still in earlier stages, an enormous body of tests have been compiled and verified. "Anecdotal evidece", as some like to say, is by the day becoming an anecdetal term itself, and is an obsolete way of looking at TCM. I can offer references for studies and their results.

The difficult part about all this is that Chinese medicine is such a different perspective than biomedicine that its difficult to fathom without allowing some time to study the new idea. I can offer some text books on TCM if you are interested. Both fields of medicine dont recognize portions of the other, but can still treat for it. For example, biomedicine doesnt recognize TCMs dialectic approach (the idea that a part can only be fulyl understood in its relation to the whole). On the other side, TCM doestn formally recognize certain "system" in the body (for example, the nervous system), but can treat ailments related to that system. The bottom line is that both fields have alot to offer to the field of medicine. Some people put TCM down as if it were voodoo; others put TCM in a pedastal. Both approaches are bad and wrong. TCM has good things to offer the world, using sound methods, and the best approach to medicine is to combine both worlds into a unified field so that we can have a much alrger arsenal of tools to keep us all healthy!

Hope this helps some. It sounded better the first time I wrote it out lol.

 

Physical structures and the Dantian

To anyone who is unsure about the existence of the Dantian or qi, I say to simply study Qigong seriously for a few months and their presence will become undeniable. Just because qi is not fully understood by modern science yet, however, does not mean that it never will be imo. Qi is not "The Force" from Star Wars. It is a very physical thing. It can be manipulated by and can affect the respiratory, nervous, and cardiovascular systems and yet it is none of these one systems. Furthermore, you will feel once you get into qigong that it is possible to take in and release qi not only through the respiratory system, but also through the hands and feet--therefore qi must have some element of it that is independant of the body. Whatever it is, some kind of biolectric energy, magnetic fields, I really have no idea... But I know it exists because I can feel it so strongly and because it can produce marked and measurable changes in things I can do physically. Therefore, I think Qi will probably be understood by science one day--just not yet. I think breaking through the air of mysticism will be one of the first steps in understanding qi's true nature as it will cause more and more serious scientists to take an interest in it. Research has already been done that proves that qigong practice increases oxygen levels in the blood stream and stimulates the pineal gland.

One thing I do wonder about is to what extent the dantians correspond to physical structures. Most people only think of the one at the bottom of the ribcage, but there are, in fact, three seperate "diaphragms" involved in breathing. One in the throat, one at the bottom of the ribcage, and one making up the pubic floor. The upper one bends upward on inhalation while the other two stretch downwards. I don't think it could be a coincidence that these three physical structures correspond almost exactly with the throat chakra, the middle dantian and the lower dantian. Therefore, I think qi is something physical and real--we just don't fully understand it yet.

 

A detailed discussion of qi is more invovled than a simple paragraph. Suffice it to say that we DO understand qi. Its not really a peripheral discovery; Its a definition of a part of the Universe that we percieve. It exists in several forms, and in several contexts, but it is understood. It can be manipulated, although the manipulation of it manifests itself through other things in your body.
Onyomi is correct about one thig though: If you dedicate some of your time to something like qi gong for several months, you will notice something. Its not just qi...but you definitely start to understand a new perspective.

 

Personally I think 'Science' is just a well-marketed pseudo-religious belief system that is deeply limited and highly overrated lol
.....however.....
'qi' in one form was scientifically isolated and identified as 'orgone energy' by Dr Wilhelm Reich in his research. Unfortunately his work was suppressed by the FDA in America and he died in prison there - (hurrah for the land of the free! )
.....and as nobody else has said it... dantien literally means 'elixir field' so it is not an object or organ but a field of energy (vibration?).... elixir referring to beneficial life energy and associated with inner alchemical practices. There are three popularly identified dantiens in the body - the lower, belly/naval centre, the middle, solar plexus or heart (depends on who you ask lol) and upper, ni wan, brain centre. They are linked by a network of inner meridians and channels. (They may be more associated with the endocrine system than anything else imo) But Science does not understand any of this because its methods are too limited....
How can I say this??
Because the capacity and sophistication of the human brain is greater than any computer that science has yet built and yet it is largely mush and water lol
The 'centres' are often referrred to as psychic centres so herein lies the key imo - to access dantien and qi you have to exercise your mind (yi) not your logical, analytic aspect... hence the taoist statement "the wise are not learned, the learned are not wise"
What makes me laugh heartily is that people think this stuff is ignorant and primitive... yet the computer you are reading this on right now runs on binary code: zeroes and ones... or solid and empties... yin and yangs!!!!
Oh how far we've come! lol
Just like the Monkey King ****ing on Buddha's finger at the limit of the Universe ROFLMAO
:Angel:

 

Scientific fact: the juicy and goo that fill the abdomen between the tubes of the intesting, hold the same quality of "battery acid" to hold electromagnetic charges. Our intestins are a battery.

Another fact: the brain has white cells inside and gray cells composing its outside layer. this permits the mind to "think" what is outside the body (around us) and "feel" what is inside the body (pain, pleasure, burp, farts, need to pee,...). In the solar plexus, the biggest aglomeration of nervous cells after the brain, the cell tyes are inversed; the gray cells are inside the nervous center, and white cells form the outer layer, thus this permits us to "feel" what is outside the body and "think" what is inside the body. The solar plexus is the central energy distribution system, sitting on top of our energy battery (intestins thus dantian) and gives us the introspecting abilities to seek inside the answer and feel outside, like empathy, weather intuitions,...

As for the "scientific" aspect: science exists at the moment a phenomena can be observed and that the observation can be repeated (called the scientific method). If modern science did not yet develop a tool to observe it, it does not mean it doesn't exist. In fact, science developped tools to observe qi, but not to observe its manifestations, thus it cannot be scientific.

Swearing only by science is preventing oneself to discover the unknown.

 

So, I guess the moon landing, TV, computers, radios, CD players, air conditioning units, lasers, light bulbs, DVD players, MIDI keyboards, elevators, cars, airplanes, nuklear power plants, vaccines, antibiotics, and plastics are all just a big hoax, right?

 

Science is not a religion...

Sorry, TJB, but I have to agree with AZeitung on this one. Good science is based on the scientific method, a system designed by pure logic that has proven itself countless times in the real world. It is nothing like a religion, which requires faith in something that our minds cannot grasp through logic alone. Even if we come to the conclusion that we believe in God, we cannot understand his true nature. Science is what comprehension our human brains can derive about the workings of the physical universe by experimentation with that universe. No more, no less. Religion is a human answer to a primal need--one that deals with things not of our physical universe. Of course, some atheists and others may seem to cling to science as the source of all answers the way a religious fanatic clings to his faith, making science seem almost like a religion to them. Therefore, pseudo-science may be similar to pseudo-religion, but real science is nothing liked real religion.

 

Uhhh reread my post, please. I said nothing about hoaxes. I just think science is overrated and we expect to much from what is ultimately a limited belief system like any other. Science is useful - but it can't do or teach us everything.... Science is half our mind. The Mystery is the other. Yin and Yang. But our modern culture is trying to do everything by scientific method and turning its back on the wonders of existence. That's my point. Don't do things by halves or you'll end up a half-person...

Power without responsibility and humanity is usually destructive and degenerative.... (imo)

As it's Live 8 today here's some hysterical cynicism for you...
Addressing the examples mentioned..... :cry:
moon landing - 30,000 children will die of starvation and extreme poverty today, just like yesterday, just like tomorrow... but hey we played golf on the moon and left a flag there - why did we do this? Because we wanted to do it before the Russians did :bang:
TV - every day we sit passively in front of this hypnotic device and obesity becomes the biggest growing health problem and contributive factor in heart-disease, cancer, diabetes etc in the rich countries but hey we got 'Big Brother' while another 30,000 children die of poverty and starvation - but the opticians and drug companies are doing well out of it... :bang:
computers we daily disconnect from our own and each other's humanity in our endless quest for 'information', we provide networks for conmen, liars, pornographers and paedophiles to seduce more people every day into a web(sic) of selfish indulgence and further apathy, oh and another 30,000 die - but not 'virtually' - for real :bang:
radios we fill the world with artificial sound and disconnect from our environment, leaving the exploiters and poisoners to rape the Earth while passing laws to prevent the poor from competing with their stolen franchise - we hear nothing, except the Crazy Frog and the next manufactured clone act as yet another 30,000 children die in extreme poverty :bang:
CD players mmm another distraction to deafen ourselves, to desensitise ourselves to the cries of the child that dies every 3 seconds of preventable diseases and extreme poverty - but hey we can listen to a nerd impersonating a moped and make some ringtone company executives rich :bang:
air conditioning unitswe stay cool - never mind the damage to our sinuses and the positive ions generated, we're cool. We can't feed everyone or be bothered to stop malaria, but we're cool :bang:
lasers we can shine a point of light and carry information at the speed of light, but we can't be bothered to change the culture that got rich enough through bleeding the poor dry to do it in the first place :bang:
light bulbs require electricity to run - but in the 21st century more than half of the world's population still relies on its own muscles as its main source of power :bang:
DVD players when we're bored we can watch outrageously overpaid actors save the world with special effects - unfortunately "Feed, clothe and take care of Real People I" has yet to go into production :bang:
MIDI keyboards we can play a jolly song at 30,000 children's funerals that will die today. While I waste my time writing this and you waste yours reading it another child dies needlessly every 3 seconds :bang:
elevators see obesity and laziness mentioned previously. Yet another place for us to feel too uncomfortable to talk to each other. We rise silently into the sky while others suffer down in the dirt :bang:
cars the atmosphere becomes less and less breathable, oesophagial cancer reaches epidemic levels, but we look and feel cool listening to the Crazy Frog in our air conditioned Ford Ego-extension :bang:
airplanes we can fly over the 30,000 dying children on our way to new and exotic holiday destinations, alternatively we can drop bombs on cities full of people who disagree with us - hurrah for the Wright brothers and their great vision :bang:
nuclear power plants we can generate power for our indulgences and bury the indestructible waste in the sea near countries we aren't so pally with, then sell some bits of it to paranoid warmongers to threaten each other with nuclear destruction - child cancer rates being ten times the national rate near these places is just a sad coincidence as it has not yet been scientifically proven.... :bang:
vaccines we prevent diseases in those who can afford it, but live unhealthily, getting weaker with each generation and ignoring the environmental factors that allow disease to run rampant - we ignore the causes and profit from covering up the effect - we live longer and over-populate the world while allowing the poor to die of diseases we could have vaccinated them against, but were too busy listening to the Crazy Frog :bang:
antibiotics we unbalance our immune systems and nature produces more and more resistant bugs - they are great as an emergency measure but drug company funded doctors hand them out like sweets because funding only allows them 7 minutes per patient. we cure our 'inconvenient' colds and flu's while others die from lack of clean drinking water :bang:
plastics and lastly.... well what can I say? What else are you going to make 30,000 bodybags out of every day - thanks Big Science
Have a Nice Day and Sleep Tight Tonight while Science takes care of everything
:Angel:
PS The solution is not "Kill the Crazy Frog..." (let's just do that for fun )

 

I mostly agree with you on this, but the reason I call it 'religion' is because it is fundamentally a 'belief system' and we see it as all-powerful in our dealings with 'reality' - just a small point - ultimately it's just a model, like Dao or Qi are just models - reality is something else
:Angel:

 

If it's over rated, how did it give us the moon landing, TV, computers, radios, CD players, air conditioning units, lasers, light bulbs, DVD players, MIDI keyboards, elevators, cars, airplanes, nuklear power plants, vaccines, antibiotics, and plastics?

Not to mention

Calculators, telephones, cell phones, LED displays, LCD panels, pestacides, memory metals, heat shielding ceramics, chemotherapy, microwave ovens, aluminum cans, the bessimer process, impressive bridges, systems for testing the acoustic properties of computer modeled buildings, nuclear magnetic ressonance imaging (MRI), cat scans, X-rays, holograms, photographs, electron microscopes, Raman spectroscopy, infra red cameras, video cameras and recorders, preservatives, solar power, telescopes, digital watches, automated factories, and submarines.

An of course, the list of things that would not exist without people studying physics, chemistry, and biology goes on.

Science says that we can see things happen, and that we can make them happen again by doing the same things. I don't see how you could consider that a "belief system", or reject that premise.

Then by all means, feel free to log off. Before you jump on your high horse, consider the device you used to make this post.

I mean, you can make anything sound bad if you want to.
Clothing - forcing us to be ashamed of our bodies.
Food - keeps people like Adolph Hitler alive, oh yeah, and something about 30,000 people dieing, or something like that.
Heating - causes houses to burn down and people to become homeless.
Homes - destroys the natural habitat of animals, makes us incapable of surviving in the wild.
Vitamens - just gives more money to the big drug companies and makes us dependant on them.

Seriously this is ridiculous. Please let me know when you've figured out how to post to MAP through meditation alone, without the aid of "science" and then I'll take your list a bit more seriously.