Is the Bujinkan teaching Kali Now? Shihan Dean Rostohar

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by MadMonk108, Jan 22, 2015.

  1. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    This video was brought to the attention by a friend of mine who wanted to know if this was legitimate ninjutsu, because he felt it had a lot of Kali-feel to it. I've had the opportunity to train in a bit of Jinenkan and Bujinkan tantojutsu and tantodori, as well as teaching JKD Kali and trained in Inayan, Pekiti Tersia, & Serrada Escrima.

    Here's the video he sent me.


    http://youtu.be/zvn3Zgctc2A

    For comparison, here is what the Takamatsuden kata that Bujinkan tantojutsu is based on look like:

    http://youtu.be/7XVVsN6GEkI

    Evidently, the instructor in this video, Shihan Dean Rostohar, is stating that all this material is Bujinkan, and doesn't have any Kali or FMA influence.

    Here is another video of Shihan Rostohar teaching knife.

    http://youtu.be/7ElC1eKlJcI

    And here is another video of orthodox Takamatsuden tantojutsu kata.

    http://youtu.be/fEtz6nFHkGk

    What are your thoughts on this? Is there a clear FMA influence?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
  2. HarryF

    HarryF Malued Vember

    That first video looks like kali to me! Upright, smooth(ish), close range efficiency, ' incidental' elbows to the arms, strip and cut opponent in one motion... I was wondering where the super wide stance and 'big' wooden motions had gone...

    Judging by his earlier video he is transitioning from something more similar to traditional Bujinkan (like the second video) towards a far more fluid style. Maybe he realised that people don't wear armour any more...

    Even so, what's the issue? Martial arts (and martial artists) evolve and take on ideas they like, I know I certainly do. It's it because he's claiming it's Bujinkan material?
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    What do you think?

    Where does the person in the videos claim that he isn't influenced by other arts? Clearly we all are influenced by whatever we train in at some point.
     
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Is what he is doing BBT?

    Having movement from other systems bleed through into your practice is one thing but when you are teaching I think it is wise to be clear what is being taught?

    There's obviously a Bujinkan flavour at times but would you say the waza and way he moves is inline with good BBT?
     
  5. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Well, I thought there was a definite FMA influence...until I saw this video.

    SPECWOG KNIFE DRILLS

    This is all Hubud, which is s cornerstone of FMA training. There's nothing like it in JMA. This isn't just influence, this is Filipino entirely.
     
  6. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Yes.
     
  7. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    This just seems totaly backwards. I can kind of see why some one would teach booj ninja larping and call it fma but I can't see why some one would teach fma and call it booj ninja larping.

    Silly man lol
     
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Thanks for posting Auslander!

    This is a discussion we were having off MAP too, and boy was it getting frustrating with the Kool Aid crew!

    (Big thanks to Please Reality in answering some questions btw)

    There are two debates with this footage, only one of which is pertinent. There is the efficiacy or otherwise, which is not my (or Auslanders) issue; the second question is the veracity of origins. Passing non X-Kan material as X-Kan is dishonest intellectually and causes a myriad of problems for the students.

    Again the MIXING of two arts is not a problem either....the confusion is minimized there because the product has it's "ingredients" listed

    This clown went rabid in claiming "RAWR!!! ALL BUJINKAN! FORMER MILITARY! REAL EXPERIENCE..." etc when called on the material, completely missing teh point as to why it was being questioned.

    As I said elsewhere, a right cross is effective and proven but if I claim i was taught it by a Monkey Dragon then I am full of crap, and it throws a lot of questions on other stuff I am doing

    Same thing here
     
  9. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    So, that confuses things.
    :confused:
    Is there going to be an insistence by practitioners that to "legitimately" learn this one must travel to Japan or to the Philippines? Or both?
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No just that the Genesis of the material is honest

    MONKEY DRAGON!!!
     
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not sure where he's claiming it's all Bujinkan or what all the fuss is about?:dunno: His web page says he trained in a lot of things, not sure if he did Kali or learned that stuff in his "military" training, but there is no way a lot of what he shows is traditional Japanese martial arts as passed down in the Takamatsuden. Nor do I see any reason to deny it, but oh well.

    That video is very much against our principles, which have moving the body offline and using footwork, not just staying in place and moving parts of the body. I know that those are drills, but even our drills usually have footwork unless it is training from a compromised situation where you can't move freely(against a wall, pinned on the ground, etc.) but the title of that video doesn't say Bujinkan on it.

     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Seems like you'd have to train with him.
     
  13. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Rostohar told me on Facebook that everything in the video was Bujinkan, I just didn't understand principles and philosophies of Bujinkan enough to see it. Sadly, that thread was deleted before I could screen capture it. His followers are also saying this is Budo Taijutsu.

    Hannibal is referring to Rostohar. He saw the dialogue on FB to which I am referring to. Rostohar essentially stated that it was all Bujinkan, and I should not question him because he has more experience than me in the Bujinkan and was a super special forces operator for 10 years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
  14. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Ex special forces ninja instructor, seems legit to me :)

    I'm not questioning his skill but there does seem to be a bit of a self driven marketing thing going on there. Sounds to me like he is trying to create a cult around his deadly self and I can only think of one reason why £ $ €!
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Google Jitsu - His name is associated with ''PEKITI-TIRSIA'' online a lot, which may or may not mean anything.

    He also has his own design of knife knocking about, which is in a very unjapanese style.

    http://www.foxknivesusa.com/en/product/2442/specwog_warrior_knife_-_d.html
     
  16. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, from what I have seen posted here, he will probably be kicked out of the Pekiti -Tirsia organization with much drama and fanfare soon.

    Seems to happen a lot in that organization.
     
  17. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    So he said specifically that it was all Bujinkan material that he was showing and that he hadn't trained in any Filipino arts nor was he influenced by any?

    Or that if you understood and had reached a high enough level, that the principles and techniques of other arts could be combined or assimilated into the BBT conceptual framework?

    Two very different statements. If he was claiming that Hatsumi sensei taught him that, I would be very surprised.

    By the way, the Jinenkan knife material is partly Manaka sensei's creation from what I've read, therefore more modern Japanese knife material.

    There is a guy teaching Koppojutsu(not Takamatsuden related) that also has a heavy knife related curriculum. He was also on that now infamous Ninjtusu episode of Human Weapon. Here are a few videos for comparison:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugbVABeO00Q"]koppo 002 "shouaku". - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU4jE8rI9F8"]koppo technic - YouTube[/ame]

    http://nicoviewer.net/sm1891753
     
  18. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    I was told it was all Bujinkan material, not influenced by FMA, & that I should not question since I have not reached a high enough level of understanding of the Bujinkan concepts and did not operate operationally as an operator for 10 years.

    Ah...Bill Duff...where would the martial arts be without him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015
  19. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    His movement & techniques shown don't remind me too much of Pekiti, & I think he would have a hard time with Pekiti given his artificial leg & their...unique...footwork.

    But yes...interesting things happen in the Pekiti organization.
     
  20. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    PR, I'm no expert in ninjutsu, so this isn't a rhetorical question. But what do you see in those videos that suggests that the FMA stuff has been "assimilated into the BBT conceptual framework"? What is it, specifically, that constitutes the BBT framework?

    I ask because what he's doing in those videos looks like thousands of other videos on kali. That being the case, what's the threshold for saying "he's incorporated FMA into his ninjutsu" versus saying "he's using FMA right now"? If he's doing kali whilst wearing a black gi, is he assimilating kali into something else? Or just doing kali?

    Understand that I'm not making a judgment on him if he is using kali. Obviously I think it's a great art. What's more, it's hardwired into FMA to draw heavily from other sources. So it would be hypocritical to say that others shouldn't draw heavily from kali in return. That said, I would also take exception to someone claiming that they were doing pure FMA if they were clearly using judo throws and aikido wrist locks.

    In short, don't call it a duck if it's actually a platypus.
     

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