Is systema just a taiji rip off?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by stevieb8006, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    No sorry, if you say it's a rip off and I am teaching it, then logically I must be ripping people off. It's quite an accusation to make against a professional instructor, so I ask again - how am I ripping people off? What promises am I making vs time invested?
     
  2. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Well, what promises are you making, for a start and what demonstration can you make of the skills you impart?
     
  3. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    You can look at my site and Youtube channel, everything we do is pretty much laid out there. I'm asking which aspects of that Fusen considers a rip off
     
  4. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Well, if this "highlight" is in any sense representative of the content on the DVD, you're ripping off anyone you sold it to under the pretence it would help them to fight more effectively on the ground:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf8NgudMZcI"]Systema Basics - Ground Work - YouTube[/ame]

    P.S. I'm not alleging malice. You may have been/be an unaware victim of whoever taught you. Fact remains, the material won't work for the advertised purpose, it's a rip off.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Systemas historical context is quite shaky, its no touch work is obviously dubious, and its knife defense work is considered poor.

    I like some of the S/C work in it however.

    And yes I have trained in person with a two different uk based (one former one current) representatives of Vladimir's.

    ps - Dont try and make this about you Rob, Im criticizing the system, not you personally.
     
  6. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    "P.S. I'm not alleging malice. You may have been/be an unaware victim of whoever taught you. Fact remains, the material won't work for the advertised purpose, it's a rip off."

    But that is not a fact, it's your opinion.

    The experiences of people training in our group do not bear out your opinion. Of course it's difficult to prove everyday experiences as facts, which is why we always also have an open door policy for anyone interested in testing the material
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  7. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    Well as a professional instructor I am representing the system. I'm not taking it personally in the sense of getting upset or annoyed, just interested how people can be accused of ripping others off in this way

    The other comments you make are your opinions, that's fair enough. We can all agree or disagree on different things, presenting opinions as facts is something else
     
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    we should ask Hannibal - after all he does appear in this video -

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrtXgdF0I54"]SYSTEMA CONCEPTS - MINDSET - YouTube[/ame]
     
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    This intrigued me -

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLfvbOVuHqw"]SYSTEMA GROUND FIGHTING WORKSHOP - YouTube[/ame]

    In my personal opinion, Some of this is ok, (I liked the passing vs straight ankle lock drill idea) some less then good.

    But what on earth is going on at 3 mins in?
     
  10. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    No, it's a fact, which you can easily tell because that "mount escape" and that "pin" do not exist in the material of any established experts on the subject. Also, by trying them for ten seconds on someone actually fighting back.
    Which experiences are those?
    How about you put some guys in a BJJ or sub wrestling competition in the beginner division, if you want to see how it holds up? I don't have any particular urge to Gracie challenge, but if you're super desperate I'll face anyone you've got in a reasonable and safe rule-set.

    To be fair to you, this more recent video looks a lot more like it: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLfvbOVuHqw"]SYSTEMA GROUND FIGHTING WORKSHOP - YouTube[/ame]

    Does the guy with all the ink agree with your material in the earlier video?
     
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Did you notice the mount 'escape' working in the demo, but not in the sparring afterwards, thank god the guy in mount didnt know how to armbar.
     
  12. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    what i've seen of systema, it's just more nonsense. marketed to people who just don't know better.
     
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    When I was a beginning student, I could rattle of distinctions of the differences between internal and external quite easily.

    As I got more experienced, I realized they really weren't true. ("Wait, CLF redirects instead of just blocking too!") And then I thought the differences were a matter of degrees of what was done. But I am now finding that to be untrue as well.

    The more years that go by, the more I practice, the less I make a distinction between them. As in, I really couldn't describe a difference nowadays. I really think they are artificial beginning constructs that don't really exist once you study MA's for some length of time.
     
  14. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    You're teaching knife self-defense that will get people killed.

    You're teaching a false mythology based on unsubstantiated claims of Russian history and unsubstantiated claims of Russian military usage.
     
  15. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    to be fair, the edged-weapon defenses i've been personally taught in hapkido and aikido fall under this category--the getting-people-killed category. systema is just more egregious. i mean come on, contort your body around a blade? gimme a break.

    you could also add that the grappling taught in systema, hapkido and aikido all do not work in reality, under pressure.

    i've seen the nonsense taught in other martial arts too, like krav maga. which also has the same sheen applied to it like systema: the idf supposedly uses it.
     
  16. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Folks, this thread got me thinking, in your opinion:

    How does one gage the efficacy of a knife defense method?
    What criteria makes method A better than method B?
    Who is qualified to make a judgment on efficacy between method A and B (C,D,E, etc)? What qualifies said individual (judge) to make such a judgment?

    Ta :)
     
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    For me I look at how real attacks happen, watch footage, listen to people that know more about these things than I and then ask myslef.."Does the defence I'm being shown look up to the job?"
    If it relies on the person freezing, holding back energy, only attacking once, doesn't include attitude adjusters (hitting the muppet) and doesn't include controlling the weapon limb then chances are the answer will be "no".
     
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i propose that every single person posting here has been cut by a knife at least once, be it cooking, whittling, horsin' around with your buddies, shaving, et. al. we all know how dangerous an edged weapon can be from personal experience. yet we turn that experience off when it comes to "martial arts" and think it's perfectly acceptable to teach irimi nage into kaiten nage when someone comes at you with a tanto (symbolizing a knife). or to teach people an x-block. or teach people to supposedly contort their body around a blade.
     
  19. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I think that’s a perfectly reasonable and realistic approach.

    However, if we take an idealist stance, any opinion on this matter seems highly subjective, or at least it does in mind. Mainly due to the fact that we can’t set up conditions to systematically check and evaluate all the different methods, too many variables we can’t control. Taking this in to account, can we really trust the teachings/method of any individual who has not personally and repeatedly defended themselves using method A (B, C, D, etc)? Do such individuals even exist? Do we have examples of such individuals? Can we realistically verify their claims?

    On top of this each and every situation will present its own unique conditions, so even here we may come across scenarios where the conditions vary quite considerably from whatever method our ideal individual teaches/uses. Besides drilling all manner of possible scenarios and attacks, can we seriously have any preparation other than being comfortable with a blade and efficient in our movement?

    Now pardon my ignorance, I am by no means an expert in knife fighting/defense so perhaps all this is arbitrary and ignorant, but it seems to me that individuals who have no actual knife fighting/defense experience, who were in turn taught by other individuals with no actual knife fighting/defense experience, have no grounds to ascertain whether method A is better than method B (baring obviously ridiculous methods such as running in to the knife chest first or what have you), other than that is what they are trained in and consequently put their faith in. Furthermore, now I again may be completely wrong, but I would guess 99.9% of knife fighting/defense teachers/instructors and students have no actual experience in knife fighting/defense. Due to this, it seems ridiculous for said inexperienced individuals to claim that method A is better than method B (again barring the obviously ridiculous methods).
     
  20. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    From now on, I am going to develop an entire series of techniques called "Hitting the Muppet" and sell it to Paladin Press.
     

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