Is KSW turning into a sissy art?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by MACA, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Yes, I understand that Ollie, that's all fine for the individual, yourself, correct me if I'm wrong, incorporate your entire skill set when you teach, right? You don't teach one person TKMA and then teach another jujitsu, If I've been paying attention, you meld them into "your" combined system.

    On a broader sense these individuals advertising ranking in multiple styles are insinuating that they have multiple skill sets when in fact the only reason they are certified in those arts is that the skill set is virtually identical. To make matters worse on keeping on the topic of the thread, it seems that the NKMAA would separate practitioners into levels of fitness as if Kuk Sool isn't as demanding as Konshinbub or whatever the other style is that has the same exact skill set. I'm not looking down on this but I am questioning it because it's a valid question.

    Why would one need or want to do this?

    Kuk Sool isn't turning into a sissy art people just keep bastardizing it for self indulging reasons.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  2. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    IDK about you, but this is a fairly presumptuous statement IMO. :rolleyes:

    Whether in or out of the WKSA, I'd wager that EVERY single instructor teaches according to his/her own paradigm of what MA means to them. Therefore, if they feel the curriculum is weak on grappling, it seems perfectly logical to supplement it with something like shooto, BJJ, etc. (and don't try to deny it, Obe, you know full well there are WKSA black belts who do such things on the side, even if only for their own edification).

    I can't speak for NKMAA, but styles such as BJJ base promotion in rank on one's skill & the ability to *best others* who hold the rank being sought. Therefore, if some MA org (or more specifically, a TKMA org) wants to add OBJECTIVE physical requirements into its system of rank promotion, then why not?

    As for listing a pile of certifications in promoting/publicizing oneself, I recall seeing this sort of tactic taken BEFORE the idea of mixed styles became so popular (MMA, in general, seems to rely heavily on Muay Thai & BJJ, but some MMA places try to slip in at least a few other MA styles, and KSW is a conglomerate by it's own definition, even if it tries to pass off its components as "ancient" KMA). So if some guy thought he had stumbled onto some HUGE revelation, that because so many of the *modern* MA had stripped away various elements in order to make the teaching of certain martial skills easier to adapt into a sport-like approach for practice (replete with one's mindset, rules to follow, etc.), that s/he would "undo" the *damage* by simply combining 2 or more of them (e.g. blending judo & karate in order to render a jiu-jitsu methodology for combat). People in general, as well as established sport MAists, would be skeptical of how well such a person might patch together the various styles UNLESS they held certification in each of the various disciplines. The only problem I see with this scenario is if the certificates are forgeries, or perhaps obtained from an organization with a dubious background. Otherwise, it makes perfect sense to me. And which would you prefer, some guy who legitimately studied various MA disciplines and cobbled them together in order to obtain his version of the quintessential MA, or some guy who simply did the cobbling (perhaps without getting certified) and then made up some phony history about his background, claiming lineage from some long forgotten MA monk/master? :dunno:
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  3. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Also, if I have a 2nd Dahn in Kuk Sool, transferred my rank to a new org, and am now a 4th Dahn in (another style of) Hapkido – then I think it is better to say:

    “I received my 1st and 2nd Dahn in Kuk Sool, and entered into a new organization at that rank. I subsequesntly received my 3rd and 4th Dahn from this new organization”

    Rather than listing them as:

    2nd Dahn- Kuk Sool
    4th Dahn- Hapkido

    Now, I also know some folks that have done TKD with a non-kukkiwon entity and are ranked as, for example, a 4th Dahn in TKD and have that level of skill, and basically do the curriculum as the Kukkiwon. When they join a TKD org associated with the Kukkiwon, they cannot be cross-ranked, because of the time in grade requirements. So in that case, they can have something like:

    4th Dahn- (random American TKD org)
    1st Dahn Kukkiwon
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  4. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Hi Obe,

    Actually, I teach Savate on Mondays and Wednesdays evenings, and Martial Arts on Tuesdays and Thursday evenings. The first hour on Tuesday is devoted to Eskrima, and the second hour is what we call 'Integrated Fighting Arts', which is more akin to the blend you suggest. Thursday evening follows a similar theme to Tuesdays.

    Now, having said that, I have in the past also taught Kuk Sool & Hapkido locking sets privately to a local Taekwondo group, who wanted to add Hosinsool to their predominantly kicking art. But if someone came to me privately and asked to learn joint-locking, I'd not constrain myself to just one art (or even one Country) to draw from.

    By the way, although I mentioned you in my previous post, I didn't wish to direct my reply to you in any direct or accusing manner. I simply wanted to add to the debate relating to listing additional instructor qualifications or not.

    As to whether one specified art requires higher levels of fitness and conditioning over another specific art, I'd prefer to stay out of that one - mainly because I don't know if it does or doesn't! All I know, is that some arts out there definitely allow/cater for people with lesser levels of physical fitness and conditioning than others. But I'll repeat what I tell to my Savate, Grappling and Boxing students, who do compete: "If all else is equal on the day, the one who is in the best physical condition will win!"
  5. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    'Transferable Skills' exist in many areas. So I'd probably keep things simple on all written advertising. To use your example:

    2nd Dahn- Kuk Sool (WKSA)
    4th Dahn- Hapkido (IHF)

    You could always go into more detail, verbally or otherwise, if asked for further information, etc.

    At the end of the day, 99% of your prospective new students (when reading your flier, for example) aren't gonna know, and sure as hell ain't gonna care either!
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  6. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    What you must remember Unk, is that there are a lot of people out there in life who may have invested large amounts of their time and, perhaps, not a small amount of money along the way too. And I really am not talking just about martial arts, or any one particular martial art either. Anyone who comes along and tries to alert them to the possible truths/untruths may very well receive a hostile rebuttal. After all, it would require them to admit - not least to themselves - that they may have been had at some point!
  7. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Agreed. :cool:

    (the rest is directed to Cz - :bow1: )

    I mean, if you're gonna look at

    4th Dahn- (random American TKD org)
    1st Dahn- Kukkiwon​

    as being an acceptable way to list one's accomplishments, then why would

    2nd Dahn- Kuk Sool (WKSA)
    4th Dahn- Hapkido (IHF)​

    be better than

    “I received my 1st and 2nd Dahn in Kuk Sool, and entered into a new organization at that rank. I subsequently received my 3rd and 4th Dahn from this new organization.” - ???​

    I'm asking you, Cz, because I'm curious if Pugil's slant on things might've changed your mind. ;)
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  8. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    I think it would be okay to say that, but I think it is better to say the later. It is just a personal preference, because otherwise it might give the impression that I went from white to 2nd black in KS, then from white to 4th in HKD, which is not the case.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Well here's something that might cross people's minds with your other example: the guy couldn't cut it as a Kukkiwon black belt and therefore went looking for some "certificate mill" in the USA in order to achieve higher rank.

    So if you're unwilling to use a simple, streamlined list, and to rely on the fact that anyone who's truly interested in learning from you would ASK for clarification, then I think you'll end up having to insert EXPLANATORY passages whenever submitting your MA bio.

    As always, this is merely my 2¢ on the matter.
  10. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Sure, I could possibly see that too. In the case of the TKD people I know, they usually go from a higher rank FROM a US org to a lower rank in KKW, only because of the time-in-grade requirements from Kukkiwon (KKW TIG requirements only take into consideration from KKW).

    I have a student that’s a 2nd Dahn from an IFT-esque US based org. She wanted to jump ship and go to our school full time. I don’t teach TKD, but other instructors in our org do, and are KKW certified. I got them together, so she could continue to progress in TKD if she wanted to. They are in the process of teaching her KKW patterns, modern kicking, and olympic sparring, and when she learns all this and tests, she will be 2nd Dahn (random TKD org) and 1st Dahn KKW. But she's not learning everything over. Just enough to fulfill KKW requirements.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  11. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Thanks everyone I actually think I can get my head around all this, I just need to be more open minded.
  12. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    What you shared in your last post (#248), Cz, is exactly what I see as problematic with certain MA orgs, such as Kukkiwon and WKSA. TIG requirements MAY be reasonable for a person who started WITHIN the particular org, but ignoring the fact that other bona fide MA institutions exist, and the fact that someone may wish to "crossover" from such an entity, makes them an archaic form of isolationism in a world that keeps breaking the barriers in *instant* communication.

    I don't see why a mix of objective skills AND subjective pursuits, can't make up the components of a MA rank test, and to leave out things such as TIG requirements, which actually have little bearing on the matter.

    It's probably because of the *ridiculousness* of strict TIG requirements held by certain MA orgs that alternative MA orgs have cropped up alongside of them. :thinking:
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  13. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    just to shed some light on a little bit of ridiculousness, the korean government doesn't recognize any tkd org outside of KKW for certification. when the gov decided to back tkd, all the schools joined in except ITF and Hwang Kee. what i am trying to get at is that in tkd there are no other bonafide orgs. it would be like getting a cert from a bonafide yudo school that had nothing to do with the kodokan.
  14. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i dunno about that

    well sir, i wouldnt humble myself just yet! think about it, all that listing a bunch of ranks does is cause less dialogue. in my mind, martial arts is generic until someone takes a class. with this mindset, the only additional things that would sway me into wanting to take lessons would be settled after a free intro class. all i want to see as a student is that my teacher is proficient at what he/she is teaching and that they are not going to shut down shop any time soon(**cough**cough***mr. lim***cough).

    in my opinion laying out the whole list is much like adding a bunch of titles to an MD that have nothing to do with the practice. why waste ink?
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    It may be a concept which was borrowed from academia (those folks just LOVE to string "alphabet soup" behind their names, don't they?). BTW, I have seen medical doctors hang other, somewhat unrelated, awards & merits on the walls of their offices (perhaps as a means of trying to impress their clientele?).

    And please remember, SsangKall, that just because I say I can UNDERSTAND why a MA teacher may want to publish a long list of achievements in trying to persuade prospective students to study at their establishment, that it doesn't mean it's my personal PREFERENCE (sheesh!).
  16. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    understood, sir. nothing personal; my position is mostly one of discussion promotion and i am so happy to see such discussion on mapkuksul. i do not feel it is in an instructors best interest to put more than 1-3 titles on their business card. this is purely from a marketing and respect to one's current teacher perspective.
  17. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    I just got off work and read all the wonderful comments....

    this is a simple question...

    If you are teaching your own eclectic MA style then why would you want to post all the other Ranks and Accomplishments? You are the founder of your own MA style. Do it well, promote it, promote you doing it and do not look back. I know people think that they have a marketing advantage over the "ONE" style school. But if you do it well and you market it correctly you will succeed. You do not see Suh In Hyuk marketing that he trained in other styles. What rank did he get in what other MA's? (This is a rhetorical question for those that did not know ) I really do not care! When I started MA training I looked into what school was in my area, what the prices where and unforgivably I looked at the uniform if it was cool or not..... I did not care what the teachers rank was, They wear a Black Belt and that was way better than me. I now know I was a fool. But Thank Goodness I found a Kuk Sool School and fell in Love with the ART!

    Hindsight is always 20/20. When I started my first school I promoted the ART not myself. I feel that ego's are running to rampant now a days. This is one reason I left The WKSA, ( not the only, believe me there where many) it was starting to promote Suh In Hyuk more than the ART!

    Again this is just my 2 cents worth....:evil:
  18. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    with the advent of the internet, however, more people are beginning to do homework before making the commitment. maybe links attached to abstract styles and titles can be provided.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  19. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    So again PROMOTE your ART! It is a fact that when someone is looking to take MA lessons they look at - Location and Price over everything else. So promote you ART! Over 90% of new students do not care if they are learning from a Grand Master or just a Black Belt. They are looking at it as an ENTERTAINMENT! Really look at the stats. How many people that call you about MA lessons actually make 1st Dan? How many of them actually want to go on after that? How many drop out before the 1st year?

    This is a business but the true Martial Artist that seek out a teacher for that teacher accreditation are FAR and FEW! They are going to do investigations on the persons abilities not what is hung on there wall. Look at how you started... for those KS'rs did you choice your school because of the teacher or what? If you wanted the best teacher then why not take private lessons from Suh In Hyuk or the highest Master you could find? This is just an example.

    We care more about what someone says they know then the actual students.

    Again just my (this time) 1.5 cents worth. :evil:
  20. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    It's your other ranks and accomplishments that give you the right to create your own style. Note here that I include skill in accomplishments. I think we can all agree that there's far too many people who have cobbled together bits and pieces of different arts and then sold it as their own style. Of course many others have been visionaries who adapted what they knew to make it into something which is distinguishable e.g. Kano, Oyama etc.

    Also you may not care now that In Hyuk Suh had other grades, but back in the 50s if some 20 odd year old started trying to sell you his new system then surely you would have checked that he actually had some decent training?

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