Is Kickboxing an easy target?

"I wish that the stage was as high and narrow as a tightrope, that way no incompetent would dare step upon it."

That quote comes from the great German playwright Johann Wolfgang van Goethe. Clearly he was a man who loved his craft, as am I a man who loves mine (martial arts). Unfortunately the stage is not as high and narrow as a tightrope, and neither are the martial arts. The commercialisation of martial arts in the West has led to an influx in recent years of so-called "masters". I always view the claims and credentials of martial arts "masters" as I view Hollywood documentaries: they are all, at the best, loosely based on the truth, and, at worst, total fabrications and lies.

I have been told that all martial arts should be respected, that each is simply a different path towards the same goal. But I do not buy this. I believe that not all paths lead to the truth. I believe some lead to lies, and that some even lead people totally astray. I do not think punching and kicking is particularly complicated. After all, the human race has been punching and kicking for thousands of years. I would think that by now we would have perfected our punching technique! I do not believe in recently discovered "secret" techniques; I believe these are merely variations to age-old basic techniques that have been added by some "masters" in attempts to justify their own existence, and that of their art. I believe that out of all the athletes and hobbyists in the world, martial artists are the most dedicated and fervent believers in their disciplines. But unfortunately there are even dedicated, fervent believers in martial arts that are proven frauds. Perhaps that belief gives people a purpose in their lives, even when those beliefs are not based upon logic, reason, and facts.

I have been told that each martial art is just a different way of achieving the same purpose, that no martial art is inherently bad, and that each martial art should be respected. Frankly, I think this is just a politically correct statement that supposedly tells us to respect all martial arts. I also believe this statement is a way for fraudulent martial artists to justify their existence. In effect, they are saying: "Since I respect your art, you should respect my art, and, if you do not, then you are wrong." This makes them sound noble, and makes you seem inconsiderate for not respecting their arts. Perhaps their reasoning is as follows: "Since I do not criticise your (legitimate) art, you are wrong in criticising my (illegitimate) art." Surely this is an illogical view for an illogical art.

I think frauds use this type of false logic all of the time. I always question a "master" when I believe they are a fraud. Surprisingly (or not), they can never answer even the most basic questions that require a logical and factual answer. Instead of providing evidence of how they are right, they criticise me when I provide evidence of how they are wrong. I offer this: Just because a person is a fervent believer in astrology, a certified expert in astrology, a teacher and writer of astrology, and an expert in performing astrology does not mean that astrology is legitimate and has any basis in fact. When examined using objective, verifiable, scientific methods, astrology has been proven to be a hoax. Nevertheless, there will be some who think I am closed-minded for not believing their astrology BS might possibly be true. Likewise, many of the so-called "masters" and "founders" I have challenged over the years have attacked my "mental and spiritual development" and have called me closed-minded for not accepting their martial BS.

The dictionary defines fraud as "the promotion, for profit, of something known to be false or unproven." Not all illegitimate instructors are committing fraud since fraud requires a deliberate deception and many of these people sincerely believe in what they are doing. However, just because a person sincerely believes in what he or she is doing, does not mean that is being done is correct, scientific, proper, or even legal. Certainly not ethical is most cases. The main motivation of many illegitimate instructors is promotion of themselves rather than fraud, greed, or misinformation.

I have been training in legitimate martial arts for 21 years, and I am tired of the credibility of authentic arts being damaged by frauds, pseudo-masters, McDojos and belt factories. I am tired of glorified day care centres claiming to parents that a game of tag will teach their child to defend him or her self. I am tired of seeing twelve year old third-degree black belt instructors who cannot even throw a decent side kick at knee height. I am tired of "Chi Masters" releasing a new DVD on "secret oriental death touch" techniques every six months. I am tired of the boxercise class instructors who think they can actually fight. I am tired of inexperienced people buying a black belt and certificate off ebay and claiming to be a qualified instructor when they can't perform a single technique properly. I am tired of seventeen-year old bisexual gym queens with spiky hair and eyebrow piercings claiming they're a pro fighter, and when questioned on what style they practice, they reply: "UFC". I am tired of redneck hicks who have never practiced martial arts forming their own "Ninja" societies and claiming it is the real deal (s'up Ninja Bob?).

Whenever I see a teacher, a school or an organisation I think may be a fraud, I ask 6 basic questions:

1) What style do you teach?

2) What is the history of that style?

3) What does your style offer that existing styles do not? (If a newly established art)

4) Who is your instructor?

5) Which governing body are you with?

6) May I see your teaching credentials and insurance details?

Any genuine instructor should be able to answer these questions, with real proof, instantly. They should also be able to provide details of how I can prove their claims (telephone number or address for their instructor and governing body, and teaching/insurance certificates, for example). But when they cannot I start probing further. Proving a teacher, school or art is a fake is easier with traditional arts such as Karate and Tae Kwon Do because there is an established curriculum the teacher should know. If they don't practice it (or practice something entirely different that appears made up), then there is probably something wrong.

But a fallback used by a lot of fake instructors when I challenge them is: "Oh, we do Kickboxing." Even if it is named Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu, it was created three weeks ago and the twenty-one year old college student with the 120-pound frame and sun bed addiction standing in front of me claims to be its founder, the answer 9/10 times is: "It's Kickboxing."

Me: "I see all you do is hit pads during class. Do you spar?"

Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu founder: "Oh, no, we don't spar. Far too dangerous."

Me: "Ah, what do you call that then?"

Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu founder: "Kickboxing."

Me: "I though it was Tae Kung something-or-other..."

Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu founder: "Yes, but it's essentially Kickboxing."

Me: "Do you have a heavy bag?"

Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu founder: "No, they're far too dangerous to hit."

Me: "Right... do you hold competitions?"

Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu founder: "No, they're far too competitive."

Me: "Uh-huh. I saw you do an interesting technique earlier, what do you call that?"

Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu founder: "A side kick."

Me: "Er... but you 'kicked' to the front?"

Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu founder: "No, it was a side kick."

Me: "But a side kick goes to the side..."

Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu founder: "No, it's a side kick and it's a highly effective technique unique to my style of Kickboxing."

I love Kickboxing. My hero and role model is Bill Wallace, who was a champion Kickboxer. I hope to go pro one day myself and teach this sport well into my seventies and eighties. But with no universally established curriculum, I find it difficult to refute a McDojo's claim that it teaches genuine Kickboxing. Even if all they do is hit pads to music for forty-five minutes (which seems to be the "in" class duration right now), they still claim they are teaching Kickboxing. Even if the instructor weighs 300 pounds of BBQ ribs and fried potatoes, can't throw a jab, can't kick above his knee, and has never competed, they still claim to teach Kickboxing. Worse of all, the general public seems to buy it.

Is Kickboxing an easy target for frauds?

Please discuss.

 

Really good post there Superfoot. I would question however whether it's entirely necessary for clubs to be with "governing bodies". One of my muay thai and my mma club aren't affiliated to a governing body and I have no issue with that, in fact,I prefer not to be.A club doesn't need to be part of a big organisation to be legitimate.
All the rest though I agree with though.

 

Thanks Su lin, and that is a really good point you make there (re: governing bodies). I sometimes wish governing bodies didn't exist, particularly when the excessive fees, politics and power struggles come in to play. But, I think, they have a plus side as they allow genuine clubs to prove their authenticity. Of course, there is the other side to this, as McDojos can be a member of an illegitimate organisation. Plus, like you say, really great clubs often have no desire to goin an organisation.

Shame we can't have a centralised body, recognised by Government, to monitor schools and instructors, and throw out those that aren't up to scratch. Probably never happen though

 

There is a debate going on in MMA circles as to governing bodies- you know what it's like ,no unified rules etc so different promotions can be so different and checking the rules must be a nightmare for fighters!

I was part of WUMA when I did kung fu, which had members from all types of ma (including dodgy made up kickboxing) and I didn't feel particularly comfortable with it. My mma and muay thai instructors refuse to join associations now due to the awful politics that go on.

I can't see Sport England,who would be the most qualified existing organisation, taking on such a role. It can work both ways- if there was an organisation it would be easier for clubs to apply for training to aid their development, but can you imagine the size of it?

The thing with kickboxing is that it tends to be a "catch all" phrase.If you aren't sure what to call what you do,call it kickboxing and people will know what you are on about.

The only thing people can do is if they find a dodgy club then let people on places like MAP know or if they are REALLY dodgy I suppose trading standards could be interested,though I doubt it.

Unfortunately there are people who are happy to go and pay money and be under the illusion that they are studying a legitimate,authentic martial art even though we all know it's a huge pile of dog doo doo.

 

Don't have time to discuss right now but have to say that was an awesome post superfoot! One of the best I've read on my entire time on MAP!

 

I totally agree. I've looked at various local kickboxing clubs around and it's all quite different. I've seen the 'tae bo' style classes touting themselves as kickboxing too.

To be fair I'm sure my club sounds a bit like one of these frauds. Nobody has hear of Jee pai kung fu and kickboxing as there is 1 club in Worthing and ours (a private work club). At least we do hit eachother with kicks and punches and train hard (mostly!).

I'm not really sure what the answer is though. There is the WKA you can be affiliated to, but the name can't be trade marked i guess. :/

 

I completely agree with the " all martial arts should be respected" thing,when quite clearly they shouldn't.We don't put up with frauds in other parts of life- we can often get them dealt with but martial arts isn't like that.

It's similar with the "it's not the martial art it's the teacher" debate. What are people's thoughts on that?I see that phrase a fair amount on the forums I visit. Don't get me started on clubs that claim to teach martial arts for self defence either when they quite clearly don't.I know that's another argument entirely but it's dangerous.

I suppose the most dangerous effect of fraudulent martial arts teachers is giving people false confidence,making them think that because they do made up kickboxing they can handle themselves on the street,even though they never fight!

 

I went on a tour of kickboxing clubs all over the Midlands with Russ ealier this year. They vary from non contact right through to full contact clubs and everything in between.
There's a place for everyone and as it's not really a style so as such can contain whatever the instuctor want it to.

 

I echo what CKava said, great post.

I find it interesting and somethimes highly amusing listening to you Superfoot. You practically say and have exactly the same thoughts, gripes and concerns as myself, its quite uncanny!

Maybe you are my identical twin!!!!!

Were i teach their is alot of "KickBoxing" clubs, 1 of them is very respectable, and actually teaches Kickboxing and Thai but the others are just bad!!!!!

Ive changed the name of what we teach now so we are not sterotyped and so far so go.

 

Great post Superfoot.

I say, "all people should be treated with respect until they prove they are an idiot."

Other than that, I always consider kickboxing to be pretty hardcore no matter where it is taught. The only thing that really separates one kickboxing school from another is in how hard they are allowed to hit each other and where they are allowed to hit.

What I mean is that you can take a kickboxer from a class where they have light sparring and light contact only, and put them in a class that allows heavy contact, and if they survive the training, they will be hardcore fighters.

What I'm saying is you don't have to change a whole lot of other things... so you never know. You might have a kickboxer in an aerobic kickboxing atmosphere, but they are really a good streetfighter, and hit hard. They are still going to be hardcore in a fight even though you might laugh at their kickboxing class.

Don't underestimate. People might take light contact kickboxing for years, but then progress to heaver contact... it just took them longer to get there than someone that went right into heavy contact. The point here is that they might never have progressed to heavy contact if they hadn't first started in light contact.

I remember some of the guys I trained with twenty years ago coming over from Japan in karate. They loved the leg kicks, this was very odd for me as we didn't spend a lot of time on leg kicks other than stomp kicks to the knee which we couldn't use in sparring. I found from them that it was normal to kick to the legs in sparring, as well as sweep when training in Japan. One of these guys, they were all blackbelts but this guy was particularly good, he went back to Japan and a year later I saw him again... he had become a kickboxer over there, he had bulked up some fifteen to twenty pounds of all muscle. He was already good, but now he was a monster... like I said, hard core... and yes he still kicked to the legs, only it hurt more now.

 

NMAC,

I would class yours as Kickboxing because at you spar a live opponent. Although the founder of Tae Jeet Kwon Jutsu may claim that air is the toughest possible opponent...

Su Lin,

You hit home a major point. I believe it is unethical and immoral to teach techniques, or a system, which doesn't work. As an instructor I couldn't live with myself if a student got hurt or killed trying to defend him/herself with ineffective techniques I had taught them. As a martial artist I cannot just stand by and let these frauds spread their martial BS; I will not stand by and let it happen.

 

Martial Dad,

You are right, and unfortunately it is the freedom afforded to instructors to add what they want that has led to a proliferation of McDojos. They go so far as to use the name "Kickboxing" to legitimise their art, even when what they teach is not Kickboxing by definition. This is what I meant by Kickboxing being an easy target. I think this must change to salvage the dignity of the sport, and I'm desperately trying to think of ways to achieve this. Hence why I'm asking you wise folk for advice! :cool :

 

Toe-Job,

S'up twin? lol

Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I think it's unfortunate you've had to change the name of your art to distance yourself from the surplus of McDojos and poor quality gyms in your area. I hope the new name is very successful, and keep up the great work setting the benchmark for quality in your area. Best of luck to you friend

To everyone else: Toe-Job's situation highlights the negative impact these frauds are having on genuine instructors. Kickboxing is a great martial art and sport we should be very proud of, and I think it is up to us to stand up and speak out against frauds. The more people know about differentiating duff from the genuine article, the less confident frauds will be to keep spreading their BS.

 

Rebel Wado,

Great response. I agree that contact will vary from club to club, but there should be at least some type of application of techniques against a live and resisting opponent, whether for tournaments or self-defence. Problem is a lot of schools and clubs do not feature this aspect and yet still claim to provide tuition in authentic Kickboxing.

 

Mitch,

Great response, and all of those aspects are fundamental to effective self-defence. Any genuine Kickboxing gym/club, whether sport orientated or not, will feature all of this. I even learned defences against multiple knife-wielding attackers when I trained at the Jet Centre with Benny Urquidez, and I went there purely to train for tournaments.

Problems arise, though, when clubs don't teach any of the material you offered in your post, yet they still pass themselves as providers of effective martial arts. Problem for Kickboxing specifically, however, is that many see Kickboxing as a generalisation. When the poor quality clubs are challenged, they claim they teach Kickboxing.

 

Perhaps we should all be teaching it more often, then? Out of interest Mitch, who is your preferred authority on scenario-based training?

 

Cross training and welcoming all comers into your club and listening to them.keep my mouth shut and let people judge by what I can do not what I say.


ergards koyo

 

Who was this directed towards?