Is Japanese Ju Jitsu sufficient for self defence and competition?

Also keep in mind if your school is connected to Mr Calvin Lester and he only attained the first level of license in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu then he's only had a very small part of the school and without being fully initiated into the system there's a good chance the material he is passing on could be based on a flawed understanding.

Have a good think about what that might mean for those connected with him and what they are being taught.

This is again where you will benefit from reading up on koryu on how they are transmitted. Our comments will make more sense then.

 

Missed this edit last night, must've come up while I was replying to the initial post....

I really don't know how to telly you this, but it's looking worse and worse.

Tenjin Shinyo Ryu without the weapons is still Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, just a limited curriculum. The only way it would take a different name is if it is a different school (either a different school entirely, or a different branch). And, try as I might, the only reference I could find at all to "Tenjin Ryu" was a system taught by "Anshu" Christa Jacobson in her Budo Ryu group.... and that's far from a high endorsement. It may be noted, of course, that according to some of the clips associated with this system, it includes Bojutsu, Jutte, and some sword (at least).

Steve (Kogusoku) may have other information, but it frankly looks rather disingenuous, to say the least....

 

Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu have no weapons systems period.
There are techniques where weapons are involved, but it could hardly be called a comprehensive weapons system.

There are a couple of weapons retention techniques, a defence against an enemy drawing a sword, defences against attacks with a kodachi and a few techniques where you use a kodachi against an enemy armed with a tachi both seated and standing. (The kodachi techniques in various Japanese publications on the tradition show that the kodachi techniques are actually a nobete (延手) which is an elongated jutte.)

There are weapons techniques subsumed in a functional way into the techniques of the ryuha's jujutsu, or as a way of entry into a jujutsu technique, but as I said, it is hardly a comprehensive weapons system.

From a historical standpoint, the founder of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, Iso Mataemon had a dojo in Otamagaike, which was in modern day Kanda, Tokyo. The dojo was in a very close proximity to Chiba Shusaku's Hokushin Itto-ryu kenjutsu hombu dojo. In fact, certain students were authorised to cross-train in the ryuha.

It is well documented that Iso Mataemon and Chiba Shusaku trained together on certain occasions and exchanged techniques and principles of their martial disciplines. In fact, Iso Mataemon is credited for teaching Chiba Shusaku how to do ashi-barai from tsuba-zeriai in kenjutsu, which is now an illegal technique in kendo, but was used until the 1960's in most mainstream kendojo.

(N.B. When I use the term tachi, I'm using this as a generic term for a katana, uchigatana etc. Just like some Japanese instructors do.)

 

The belt he has is the middle one:



Sensi Mackenzie Smith

Sensei Mackenzie Smith [ A.I.D.C ] 7 dan International Ju Jitsu, Ju Jutsu Federation. All Japan Martial Arts Federation.International Institute of Self Defence Japan. European Ju Jitsu [Ju Jutsu ] Union .International Budo Council

What is it?

Sorry, wrote it wrong- what I meant to say was that if a grappler beats a striker (yeah,said it wrong), how am I supposed to close in to my opponent-in sparring for kickboxing if I get hit hard I back off-if I get hit with a stinging shot I wince in pain/can't get close.

 

Nothing about being a judo 8th dan there Ronki.

 

Thanks Steve, that was what I thought, but wasn't sure so didn't want to mis-speak.

 

I assume the Judo was taught by IJJF (not JJIF) /EJJU (not what is now known as European Ju Jitsu fedaration) /IBC

http://www.ryuzado.com/EJJU_Homepage.htm

Sensei was taught and graded by the Japanese and has been doing it for 30-odd years- I assume this (Abbe Kenshiro Docho) was his teacher (either him or his successor Otani Masutaro):

http://www.ibcuk.com/History.html

As I stated though, he has set up his own organisation called the International Bushido Association now so I wouldn't be surprised if his info isn't online. Best to ask him yourself via facebook/contact his son Nick Smith (goes on it more often)

MAJOR EDIT

Information I found!!!

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=18645024352&topic=13890

 

With regards to the video, it looks similar to the kata/ it is how Sensei demonstrates it to us but very rarely does he do a full-scale demo-it's generally we partner up and one of three Senseis gives us something to do until he decides to change it-of course they check up on us

 

MAJOR POST

Back to the question though, is it enough if someone I fight on the street (or even in the ring) knows how to punch/kick hard and fast?

 

How do you KNOW that Ju Jitsu is good at stopping an opponent? Is it something that you practice in an alive manner at your dojo?

As for KNOWING that a striker generally beats a grappler where did you come up with that information? I thought the early UFCs dispelled that myth where you had pure strikers fighting pure grapplers and the grapplers won the lions share of the matches. For a more recent example http://vodpod.com/watch/4360190-ufc-randy-couture-vs-james-toney-full-fight

If you look at the UFC and Pride the strikers who were dominant had extensive grappling backgrounds which gave them the ability to focus on their striking.

 

"da st33t"

Requires some good pre-emptive skills both verbal and physical so that should be a big consideration.

With regards to the Jujutsu well think about it.

If what you a learning is a person's interpretation of their very limited training in a system and the system was developed for a different culture and time than what you now find yourself in, then how well do you think it will serve you?

It's out of context.
You will only be taught a very small section of the system and so will be missing bits of the puzzle.
You can't guarantee that what you are being shown has been analysed and understood sufficiently by those delivering it because of the limited amount of training.


If you are that worried about self defence the do Boxing, Judo and do some training with the British Combat Association.

Don't try and make someone's attempt at pseudo koryu fit self defence training.

 

western gendai budo (jjj) is very hit and miss with regards to self defence utility. The way Koryu Jujutsu is trained in my opinion does not lend itself well to teaching fighting skills/self defence.

Depending on how and what you specifically train in class, relying soley on JJ to defend yourself could be a really bad call.

Having said that your fear of being hit or hurt is clearly going to be the largest detrimental factor to your ability to effectively defend yourself.

I'd suggest taking up boxing/mauy thai/full contact knockdown karate depending on what's in your area.

 

I said I wrote it wrong-I meant the other way around

 

Nothing is enough for a fight on the street or even in the ring. Yo have no idea who you are going to be up against and what skills and attributes they may have. Relying on any art to be enough to defend yourself is a recipe for disaster.

 

What to do? Here's my training timeline

"Sigh"

Well I have been kickboxing on and off since 2005. I started in late 2005 for the cardio and did it until around summer 2006-no proper sparring-just 3 step kumite or light contact/not hitting to the head.
Then I had college in late 2006 to spring 2007 and was lucky if I could go 2x a week-I only maintained my skills since sometimes I didn't go at all in the week.
Then I had 2 months off due to excessive workload at college/returned and trained like a madman in summer 2007-started sparring regularly with a faceshield as well-progress was good and I did it until Spring 2008 since I quit my part time job/focused on my studies so it gave me more time to practice. I also 'dabbled' in grappling/Ju Jitsu for 6-8 weeks as a 30 minute addition to the kickboxing (end of 2007-early 2008).
HOWEVER, in Spring 2008 I failed I grading I thought I was easily going to pass and due to embarrassment, didn't kickbox at all for several months. I returned in October/November 2008 (although I still did circuit training and practiced my breakfalls solo).
2009 I began to progress slowly but surely but still had the faceshield- my first competition was October 2009 and I was put in novice section- I was over cocky since I had been doing it for a long time- I got my ass kicked.

^ WHAT ONE MUST REMEMBER IS THAT I DID THIS ALONGSIDE BODYBUILDING/IT WAS THE CARDIO SO MY MIND WASN'T FOCUSED ON IT. MANY-A-TIMES I TRAINED SOLO/DIDN'T GO TO THE LESSONS SINCE I THOUGHT I KNEW ENOUGH/THE FITNESS AND CIRCUIT TRAINING PART OF IT TOOK PRIORITY

In 2010 I decided to go for broke and do local competitions every month/every other month-HOWEVER, I decided to add another year of competition since I read about all the different organisations.I also started training without faceshield.

IN 2010 I STARTED UNIVERSITY AND THOUGHT I SHOULD FOCUS ON KICKBOXING AS OPPOSED TO BODYBUILDING- I ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY KICKBOXING CLUB AS WELL AS MY HOME CLUB-I CHANGED FROM ONE KICKBOXING CLUB TO ANOTHER ONE IN MY HOME TOWN DURING THE SUMMER SINCE THE NEWER ONE IS CHEAPER/FOCUSES ON SPARRING.

Basically, I am still in novices/not winning every competition/have never had a first place AND i'm even focusing on this sport- I want to do it for fun but 'fun' doesn't help with self defence hence the focus on competition to get used to testing skils/working under pressure. I started Ju Jitsu to learn throws/grappling and would like to do it for 'fun' because next year I want to return to bodybuilding/get a life outside of training.

I'm frustrated everything takes so long- I am thinking of doing Judo/ Wrestling comps to test my Ju Jitsu under pressure since next year I want to do it for 'fun'- I don't want to be a fighter, just someone who knows how to defend himself

 

My heroes

I forgot to tell you, these are the people I aspire to be like. I am not trolling- I just want to have a nice strong body/physique and know my skills work

 

I haven't followed this thread overly much but can I just say that in response to the above post I laughed so hard my eyeballs ended up in my ears? Did we just travel back in time to the late eighties/early nineties?

And did someone really just say "I want to be an Van Damme?" Seriously, I've not heard someone actually say that with a straight face in about two decades :hat:

I do like the cheeky grin in the last picture though :love:

 

What sort of training have you been doing in 'Jujitsu'? ie

• How much randori?
• How much of class is given to drilling blocking then throwing type techniques?
• How much newaza randori/mat work?
• Are you taught to catch punches or block with trad karate looking inward, outward and rising blocks etc?

PS - 'sexy boy Shaun Michaels' is your hero?? haha

 

The very fact that you are asking this question is its own answer. You will get owned and lose badly.

If you went to a school that trained for Judo/Wrestling comps you would know where you stood in regards to competition.

If you haven't been training Judo or Wrestling rules you are going to get thrown like a rag doll or taken down and pinned in the first couple minutes of the match. Especially in wrestling most of your JuJutsu will be pretty much worthless.

Go train in Judo or Wrestling.

Also training karate or kickboxing for the cardio is fine. You don't have to compete and to be honest most self defense boils down to don't go to places where bad things happen and don't act like a jerk.

Quite worrying about your fighting skills. In real life they're just not that important.

 

I'm going to ignore everything you wrote before the above quote because I couldn't realy find a point in there.

If you are going to learn grappling for fun then do it for fun. Find a club and train. What the pedigree and lineage of the art it doesn't matter so much now that you've said that. You probably have enough martial arts experience to tell when people are giving obvious bad advice regarding self defence and techniques for it.

Everything takes so long and you need to train decently and train regulalry if you are going to see results in competition.

Fun most definitely has benefits for self defence!

The more fun you find training, the more you are going to get into it and the more often and harder you are likely to train. Sure you should test yourself under pressure but try to avoid taking yourself and training too seriously otherwise it becomes a chore and something you won't end up wanting to do.

What I was saying before is nothing is guaranteed in self defence. While training will help in these situations, it's far from guaranteed and no substitute for avoidance.