Is it too late to leave KSW?

For boxing it was 1867, when the Marquess of Queensberry rules came into effect.

Wrestling, when it became an Olympic Sport in 1896.


As for your Dad's hammer, if it doesn't have any original parts, then I wouldn't consider it the same hammer.

Where-as guns and cars have a shell/base and all the parts can be replaced, except the main body.

 

Hi Bruce,

At a stretch I guess you could say that 'in spirit' it's the same object (as long as you didn't / don't replace all the parts at the same time), in the same way that the Cutty Sark will be looked on in the future: http://www.greenwich-guide.org.uk/cutty.htm

It's also a bit like coppiced woodland, when trees (such as hazel) are cut right back, almost to the roots. The trees regenerate, and so despite the fact that the new growth isn't original, or that old, the trees are in essence still the same trees and therefore could be considered as being hundreds of years old.

I guess this is the Buddhist in me coming out!

Best wishes,

Ollie

 

"For boxing it was 1867,..." That's very precise of you! So you don't consider that Boxing was a legitimate sport until the day that Englishman John Graham Chambers (1843-83) published his own revised rules for English Boxing, in 1867, and the imposition of wearing Boxing gloves then?

They were called the 'Queensberry Rules', by the way, after being sanctioned by Chambers' friend John Sholto Douglas (1844-1900), who was the 8th Marquess of Queensberry. But if you go back 124 years before that, to 1743, you can find an earlier set of rules drawn up by Jack Broughton.

To say that the modern day sport of Boxing didn't really start until 1867 (and the wearing of gloves) is a mistake, in my humble opinion. And I am very confident that many historians would undoubtedly support me in that view.

To start Boxing at 1867 means you ignore all of the old 'Prize Ring' era from about 1720 to 1870. For example, you will fail to recognise Tom Johnson beating Bill Warr at Oakingham, in 1787, and in doing so being recognised as Champion. Likewise you will dismiss Richard Humphries besting the legendary Jewish fighter Daniel Mendoza, at Odiham in Hampshire in January 1788, as being a non-event perhaps? I could go on!

But, if you are going to insist on picking 1896 as the start date for Wrestling (simply to coincide with the founding of the modern-day Olympics), why not go the whole hog and use that same date for Boxing as well?

As a former vehicle mechanic, I can also alert you to the fact that it is actually possible to replace every single nut, bolt, spring, washer, panel, or whatever, on a vehicle – including the chassis and what you call the 'main body'.

 

Dude, you asked for an opinion, if I knew you were going to be precise about it I wouldn't have given you one.

I chose those dates because they are the official rules that we still use today.


If you remove all the parts of a car, it's a new car. IMO

 

However, boxing was a VERY different sport prior to the Queensbury rules, and certainly it was the Queensbury rules that led to boxing's evolution to it's current state.

 

To an extent, I'm being pedantic, and I'm also playing Devil's Advocate here, but:

I think you'll find that rules in ALL sports are constantly under review, and will occasionally be updated as evolution in that sport takes place – including the sport of Boxing and the Queensberry Rules. For example, modern-day rules of Boxing do not allow fights to go beyond 12 rounds, etc.

To state that Boxing was a VERY different sport is simply your opinion. I expect you could look at a fight from say 1911 (100 years ago, and yet well after the Queensberry Rules were introduced) and say that the style of fighting was very different to that of today. But you could compare lots of other sports from a century ago to the same sport today and they are bound to look a bit different surely! In Golf, the idea is to get your ball into a series of holes in the least number of hits/strokes. In Boxing, two people try to punch one another in the head and body. And that has always been the case! So what's so 'very different' about that?

In the very early days, it was thought of as cowardly, if either fighter moved around the ring. And the baying crowd would soon let the protagonists know about it (in some manner or another) if either fighter did move around the ring. As time went on, some pugilists started to move around a bit, and their footwork was gradually accepted (by the spectators) as legitimate tactics and skills to have and use. But toe-to-toe fighting still went on in many quarters, and can occasionally still be seen in some fights today.

Although not Boxing only with the hands, if you compare the footwork of a Savate fighter with how a Muay Thai (Thai Boxing) fighter moves around the ring, you'll get a good idea and understanding of the two different mentalities (mindsets) regarding 'bravery' (or lack thereof) versus 'strategy', similar to that previously seen in Prize Fighting/Pugilism/Boxing.

Broughton's Rules (16 August 1743)

TO BE OBSERVED IN ALL BATTLES ON THE STAGE

1. That a square of a yard be chalked in the middle of the stage, and on every fresh set-to after a fall, or being parted form the rails, each second is to bring his man to the side of the square, and place him opposite to the other, and till they are fairly set-to at the lines, it shall not be lawful for one to strike at the other.

2. That, in order to prevent any disputes, the time a man lies after a fall, if the second does not bring his man to the side of the square, within the space of half a minute, he shall be deemed a beaten man.

3. That in every main battle, no person whatever shall be upon the stage, except the principals and their seconds, the same rule to be observed in bye-battles, except that in the latter, Mr. Broughton is allowed to be upon the stage to keep decorum, and to assist gentlemen in getting to their places, provided always he does not interfere in the battle; and whoever pretends to infringe these rules to be turned immediately out of the house. Every body is to quit the stage as soon as the principals are stripped, before the set-to.

4. That no man be deemed beaten, unless he fails coming up to the line in the limited time, or that his own second declares him beaten. No second is to be allowed to ask his man’s adversary any questions, or advise him to give out.

5. That in bye-battles, the winning man to have two-thirds of the money given, which shall be publicly divided upon the stage, notwithstanding any private agreements to the contrary.

6. That to prevent disputes, in every main battle the principals shall, on coming on the stage, choose from among the gentlemen present two umpires, who shall absolutely decide all disputes that may arise about the battle; and if the two umpires cannot agree, the said umpires to choose a third, who is to determine it.

7. That no person is to hit his adversary when he is down, or seize him by the ham, the breeches, or any part below the waist: a man on his knees to be reckoned down.

These rules were adapted as the standard prizefighting rules for nearly the next 100 years, until they were replaced by The London Prizefighting Rules in 1838. Broughton’s obsession with safety did not end with the Rules however. He invented “Hand Mufflers” – gloves stuffed with horse’s hair - designed to soften the blows and he made his students at the Amphitheatre wear them, as well as padded headgear, and other rudimentary protective equipment while sparring. One side effect of these measures was that now nobles felt they could learn to box without spoiling their looks. Boxing became even more popular among the bluebloods and Broughton, like Figg before him, joined the powdered wig set. (Ironically, by protecting the hands, “Hand Mufflers” allowed fighters to punch harder than ever. Prior to the Queensbury age most career-ending boxing injuries were hand injuries, not brain injuries).

[The above courtesy of Eastside Boxing dot com – it saved me the trouble of typing it all out again!]


London Prize Ring Rules of 1838 (which succeeded and built upon the Broughton Rules of 1743) Later Revised in 1853

1) That the ring shall be made on turf, and shall be four-and-twenty feet square, formed of eight stakes and ropes, the latter extending in double lines, the uppermost line being four feet from the ground, the lower two feet from the ground. That in the centre of the ring a mark be formed, to be termed a scratch; and that at two opposite corners, as may be selected, spaces be inclosed by other marks sufficiently large for the reception of the seconds and bottle holders, to be entitled "the corners."

2) That each man shall be attended to the ring by a second and a bottle-holder, the former provided with a sponge, and the latter with a bottle of water. That the combatants, on shaking hands, shall retire until the seconds of each have tossed for choice of position; which adjusted, the winner shall choose his corner according to the state of the wind or sun, and conduct his man thereto, the loser taking the opposite corner.

3) That each man shall be provided with a handkerchief of a colour suitable to his own fancy, and that the seconds proceed to entwine these handkerchiefs at the upper end of one of the centre stakes. That these handkerchiefs shall be called "the colours;" and that the winner of the battle at its conclusion shall be entitled to their possession, as the trophy of victory.

4) That two umpires shall then be chosen by the seconds to watch the progress of the battle, and take exception to any breach of the rules hereafter stated. That a referee shall be chosen by the umpires, to whom all disputes shall be referred; and that the decision of this referee, whatever it may be, shall be final and strictly binding on all parties, whether as to the matter in dispute or the issue of the battle. That the umpires shall be provided with a watch, for the purpose of calling time; and that they mutually agree upon which this duty shall devolve, the call of that umpire only to be attended to, and no other person whatever to interfere in calling time. That the referee shall withhold all opinion till appealed to by the umpires, and that the umpires strictly abide by his decision without dispute.

5) That on the men being stripped, it shall be the duty of the seconds to examine their shoes and drawers, and if any objection arises either as to insertion of improper spikes in the former, or substances in the latter, they shall appeal to their umpires, who, with the concurrence of the referee, shall direct if any and what alteration shall be made.

6) That both men being ready, each man shall be conducted to that side of the scratch next his corner previously chosen; and the seconds on the one side, and the men on the other, having shaken hands, the former shall immediately return to their corners, and there remain within the prescribed marks till the round be finished, on no pretence whatever approaching their principals during the round, on penalty of losing the battle.

7) That at the conclusion of the round, when one or both of the men are down, the seconds and bottle-holders shall step forward and carry or conduct their principal to his corner, there affording him the necessary assistance, and that no person whatever be permitted to interfere in this duty.

8) That at the expiration of thirty seconds (unless otherwise agreed upon) the umpire appointed shall cry "time," upon which each man shall rise from the knee of his bottle-holder and walk to his own side of the scratch unaided, the seconds and bottle-holders remaining at their corners; and that either man failing so to be at the scratch within eight seconds, shall be deemed to have lost the battle.

9) That on no consideration whatever shall any person be permitted to enter the ring during the battle, or till it shall have been concluded; and that in the event of such unfair practice, or the ropes and stakes being disturbed or removed, it shall be in the power of the umpires and referee to award the victory to that man who in their honest opinion shall have the best of the contest.

10) That the seconds and bottle-holders shall not interfere, advise, or direct the adversary of their principal, and shall refrain from all offensive or irritating expressions, in all respects conducting themselves with order and decorum, and confine themselves to the diligent and careful discharge of their duties to their principals.

11) That in picking up their men, should the seconds or bottle-holders wilfully injure the antagonist of their principals, he shall be deemed to have forfeited the battle, on the decision of the umpires or referee.

12) That it shall be "a fair stand-up fight," and if either man shall wilfully thrown himself down without receiving a blow, he shall be deemed to have lost the battle; but that this rule shall not apply to a man who in a close slips down from the grasp of his opponent to avoid punishment.

13) That butting with the head shall be deemed foul, and the party resorting to this practice shall be deemed to have lost the battle.

14) That a blow struck when a man is thrown or down, shall be deemed foul. That a man with one knee and one hand on the ground, or with both knees on the ground, shall be deemed down; and a blow given in either of those positions shall be considered foul, providing always, that when in such position, the man so down shall not himself strike or attempt to strike.

15) That a blow struck below the waistband shall be deemed foul, and that, in a close, seizing an antagonist below the waist, by the thigh or otherwise, shall be deemed foul.

16) That all attempts to inflict injury by gouging, or tearing the flesh with the fingers or nails, and biting shall be deemed foul.

17) That kicking, or deliberately falling on an antagonist with the knees or otherwise when down, shall be deemed foul.

18) That all bets shall be paid as the battle-money after a fight is awarded.

19) That no person on any pretence whatever shall be permitted to approach nearer the ring than ten feet, with the exception of the umpires and referee, and the persons appointed to take charge of the water or other refreshment for the combatants, who shall take their seats close to the corners selected by the seconds.

20) That due notice shall be given by the stake-holder of the day and place where the battle-money is to be given up, and that he be exonerated from all responsibility upon obeying the direction of the umpires and referee; and that all parties be strictly bound by these rules; and that in future all articles of agreement for a contest be entered into with a strict and willing adherence to the letter and spirit of these rules, and without reserve or equivocation.

21) That in the event of magisterial interference, it shall be the duty of the umpires and referee to name the time and place for the next meeting, if possible on the same day.

22) That should the event not be decided on the day named, all bets shall be deemed void, unless again declared on by mutual agreement: but that the battle-money shall remain in the hands of the stake-holder till fairly won or lost by a fight, unless each party shall agree to withdraw his stake.

23) That all stage fights be as nearly as possible in conformity with the foregoing rules.

Reference: http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/london-rules-1838.htm


The Queensbury Rules (1867)

1. To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a twenty-four foot ring or as near that size as practicable.

2. No wrestling or hugging allowed.

3. The rounds to be of three minutes duration and one minute time between rounds.

4. If either man fall through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, ten seconds be allowed to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner; and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the ten seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his awart in favour of the other man.

5. A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.

6. No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.

7. Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee (is) to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest, to that the match can be won and lost, unless the backers of the men agree to draw the stakes.

8. The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new.

9. Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.

10. A man on one knee is considered down, and if struck is entitled to the stakes.

11. No shoes or boots with springs allowed.

12. The contest in all other respects to be governed by the revised rules of the London Prize Ring.

Thanks also to: http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/spring03/bueneventura/rules.htm

 

If his Dad owns it, It's his Dad's hammer. No matter how many times he upgraded it or made it better.

If I had a hammer exactly like his dad's that hammer is MY hammer.

But if two guy have the exact same hammer one or both guys should write their name on it or paint the handle so everyone can know these two exact same hammers are in fact completely different.

How else would we know.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrVHIWU-SsJUXvCvzPbNdlTNXAUNKypNw7hpuSOp3J_OCQ7Smo

 

what about gouging? anyone remember that sport? they used to use their thumbs to gouge each others eyes out, now there is an american sport for you

 

Gouging, throat shots, groin shots, and reality based street fighting should be incorporated into all martial arts. I keep reading how "effective" each combat system is but until they go away from the "let's have fun" mentality and start going into the "let's mess our enemy" up mentality....you can take BJJ, Boxing, Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, or insert name of art here and it wouldn't make a damn difference if you are using it for sport.

There is this man I met from Tae Kwon Do, came from Korea. He takes his thumb and puts it through no less than SIX marble slabs. He calls it "Il Kyuk Pil Sahl" or "One Hit To Kill". This is common for his branch of Tae Kwon Do: destroy the opponent by any means necessary. Now, Tae Kwon Do has a bad rap for being this "fancy kick" not really effective martial art...but if that was just his thumb hitting those slabs of marble think about what he would do to his enemies face or vital organs. The art doesn't matter it's the person behind the art that matters. I've met people from BJJ that can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag (nothing against BJJ, it's a great art, just the non-destroyers of wet paper bags) and I have met people from Tae Kwon Do that, if in a real fight, I feel I might need a hand gun and even then I'm unsure of the outcome. It's the person behind the art! Kuk Sool is what you make it. I decide to teach my students a combat style of Kuk Sool where we mess people up quickly and without stopping until that person is done wanting to hurt us or is unable to do so anymore (I think it was called "Cruel Kuk Sool" back in the day).

You can argue all day about who invented what, where what came from, and it'll always be interesting arguments. But it is how well you use the art that you have studied that matters. I'm sure this has little to no place in this thread but I felt like it needed to be said. Thanks!