Is it right to deceive people? or charge people for false information?

In a way, it is that simple, it's just not explained that way, mainly due to the Japanese concept of Nyunanshin/Junanshin. This concept basically says that it's up to the instructor to give you what you need when you need it, and it's up to the student to listen and wait, not question the instructors judgement.

 

Gentlemen, please take a look at Kobodos thread Independants and my last post if you would be so kind.

 

If integrity is as important to you as you're making it sound - which I personally don't really think is the case - I could tell you a few things about the Bujinkan that would make you burn your gi and walk away in disgust.

Seriously though, piedestals aren't good.

 

I did originally post a reply to this cos it gave me the hump. Afterwards though, upon reading what I put, I'll admi I do come across a bit pretentious and pompous, which was never my intention. When I talk abou integrity being an important underpinning principle, I mean in other martial arts. Like most people, I try to live my life with integrity. But I'm only human, and therefore not infalliable. I don't always manage.

 

I agree completely with this and other statements of this type within this thread, bit it's sidetracking the original question.

There's been no debate over whether or not info should be shared, there's been no debate over learning things at the right time, what's been asked is do you think it's ok to take money for something that is fake or incorrect?

This has nothing to do with an instructor giving you info at the right time, or expecting to be spoon fed, as ha been said why not just put info under lock and key until someone is ready for it?

Releasing it, but not sharing the truth seems like wanting the money for the product, without actually wanting to share the info.

Is this acceptable?

 

Kobudo,

Let's take the Genbukan Taijutsu manual as an example here. We know there are some vague descriptions of techniques here and there, and maybe a picture or two that doesn't quite match up to the technique. However, if you read the description of the product on the Genbukan website, it says it is a reference guide. Perhaps I've been around quality control people too long, but a "For Reference Only" document isn't the same as a governing (controlled) document. In other words, the info might not be 100% up to snuff, but it is close enough to look back on to refresh your memory.

Also, when it comes to the videos, they are referred to as a training supplement. I take that to mean something to go along with your normal training, with a teacher. So if John Q. Public decides he wants to buy some videos to see what this is all about, he gets what he's looking for...a bunch of techniques he has no idea how to do. However, if you or I buy one, it is quite easy to say, "Oh yes, this is not quite the way we do it." However, of the ones I've seen I can't recall them being so wrong that you couldn't still refer to the technique by its name. The only thing that makes them "false" or wrong is that we don't perform those techniques in the manner shown for a rank test. If you are a member, it is no big deal because you're being shown the correct way. If you aren't a member, then I don't see a problem because if you really want to learn, you'll join up. Who cares if they are right or wrong for anyone else.

 

Thanks for this, good points, to be honest I included the example of Tanemura sensei just so this didn't turn into a GBK vs BJK vs everyone else type of discussion. I don't have any real issue with anything he's done or I wouldn't be an avid GBK supporter and member.

I think another key point is that Tanemura sensei has openly admitted to making changes and given reasons, therefore any accusation of misleading people would be unfounded.

 

thank you, milady.

now let's get on to it.

from http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4209&forum=6 (you need to be a member of that forum to view) got a friend to get this:

 

Interestingly, this is, very, very, very slightly akin to a student quoting someone directly, who notices a spelling error, and who writes [sic] after said error, as they are to keep all the errors in the quotes.

Now, I've seen Tai Kai videos, and I've seen Hatsumi-soke make mistakes in them, as in go off balance and practically trip and fall, but of course do a roll to all sorts of applause and laughing and smiling. In other words, I've--gasp, shock, snorts of righteous indignation from my "betters"--seen him make mistakes, captured on video for the world to see. Now, there will be those who will of course argue it's all perception, and maybe, he planned to simply make it look like he had an uke roll into him, or whatever, just to throw us off guard. Kyojitsu [jutsu?] and all that.

Now, in my experience, members of the human race--to which I have on good authority Hatsumi-soke actually belongs--sometimes make mistakes.

What if all the talk about Hatsumi-sensei teaching "wrongly" (or whatever word choice you wish to use) was simply because when he taught them or showed them years ago, he really didn't KNOW he was MAKING a mistake?

What if Takamatsu-sensei didn't actually show him, translate for him, demonstrate to him, or explain to him in excruciatingly painful detail every nuance of every technique/kata/form/pattern/whatever the heck you want to call it, during their time together? Imagine if Takamatsu-sensei actually didn't teach Hatsumi-soke everything, and Hatsumi's actually been trying to interpret, read, translate, understand, and internalize what's in those scrolls, by "trial and error", ever since?

What if, when Takamatsu-sensei died, Hatsumi-sensei was still actually trying to figure things out, to "get it", to grow and change and test what he thought he knew? And, if assuming Hatsumi-sensei isn't as knowledgeable as God, isn't it also possible he would have thought at first certain techniques were effective/good/proper/correct, then, after further study, figured out his initial assessment/interpretation was wrong?

Is is possible that he's actually not trying, with malice aforethought, to steer students wrong at times, but instead, he's actually just doing what people do: making the occasional, albeit very, VERY rare mistake and not realizing it until a while later, then going, "Ahhhhhh....whooops."

--------
Back on topic. Of course it's wrong to teach people things, saying it's "right", when you KNOW it's wrong. Why is that even an argument? Oh, that's right: for some reason, martial artists and their "secrets" get a "pass".

Okay, I formally apologize for the following rant, but I'm all fired up and clearly not thinking straight. So, [Rant]:

Yet, with the Special Forces, or LEO, or Executive Protection, THEY get PAID to LEARN.

With US, WE PAY THEM TO LEARN. THEY TAKE OUR MONEY. That is the big difference, in that, we are not just students, we're customers. Paying, cash-fronting, check-writing, bill-and-fiscal responsibility sacrificing customers. And some of us are actually here to learn how to do things right. What if I want my wife to learn how to defend herself against her ex-husband--the same one who kidnapped her at knife point when she left him? Is what we're saying, in essence, that in the Bujinkan, the instructors deliberately teach ineffective techniques that, were my wife to try to employ them, could get her raped or killed by Robert?

I just don't get why people would teach crap, KNOWING it's crap--I can understand some nutty "true believer" who is deluded, but teaching techniques purposely wrong? Can ANYONE here offer up ANY other discipline where the people in charge deliberately teach the people below them or who are trying to earn a degree, apprenticeship, or certification, how to do things wrong, as part of their organization or job? In other words, can you name any other discipline or job where the people teaching PURPOSELY TEACH THEIR STUDENTS OR EMPLOYEES incorrect ways of working/doing their jobs/etc?

Why should anyone trust or accept as an instructor a person who in essence, say, remarks, "Oh, yeah, all those things I said would save your life if your sociopath ex-husband pulled a knife on you? Well, I was telling the truth...up to a point. You see, I deliberately put in there three things that, if you try to use them to save your life when your ex-husband tries to get you, that are all but guaranteed to get you killed instead. And here's the funny part: it's your guess which three things they were! You didn't think I'd teach just anybody all the real ways to save ones life, did you???"

What school, college, or university can you name where the instructors are purposely taught by teachers whose sole, conscious, planned objective is to impart incomplete or seriously flawed information to students, whose lives may actually, concretely, and specifically depend on that information--as seems to be the case with Martial Arts?

My next question, from a purely, "You are a direct reflection of your boss" standpoint is, what benefit does the person teaching the "crap" get out of it?

I'm just so confused! It just makes no sense for someone teaching martial arts to deliberately teach techniques they absolutely know are crap. What's the net profit to the instructor--what does HE get out of it, besides the chance to lord over a pile of the bent and broken bodies of those he taught?

[/Rant]

--Snakejutsu

 

hey plisskin, correct me if I'm wrong: you did a double take there, huh?:evil:

takes a while for that to sink in.

no prob with me with books and videotapes. they're too one-sided (impersonal and no feedback). furthermore, just about ANYONE can get their grubby mitts on em. but IN PERSON? :bang:

 

Snake pliskin wrote

I think you have hit the nail on the head. this has been my belief for a long time.

Moreover what if Hatsumi didnt visit Takamatsu every weekend and only every three months as in the newspaper article at the time.

What if Hatsumi actually ran to Takamatsu to get copies of the densho he had never studied before he died, as discussed in Belgium with a certain mr Tanemura.

What if 15 years of weekends (780 days) wasn't enough time to learn all the nine schools?

personally i think that like many of us, Hatsumi was (And still is) trying to make sense of the material he has because he probably never studied it with Takamatsu.

I wonder if this is why Tanemura sought out teachers like Kimbei and Fukomoto etc

Garth

 

According to a couple of students of Hatsumi at the time I studied with, for a lot of the 50s and 60s it really was almost every weekend. It was only later that the number of weekends fell off as Hatsumi's responsibility grew and he already had a lot of the information down.

 

Not to mention the fact that Hatsumi sensei's students at the time, the people we call the shihan now, were being used as his test dummies in the interim. He was basically testing out his understanding, theories, etc against them while he was continuing to learn. Similar to what Bruce Lee did upon arrival to Seattle and later in Oakland except that Bruce Lee couldn't see Yip Man on weekends...

 

Wow snakeyes, TMI. We don't need to know your wife's history all the same for you to get your point across. I understand your point and why you would be upset, but....

The problem is, with an attitude like that, you will never "get" martial arts. Not trying to be mean or rude, but you aren't a customer because you aren't buying anything. Martial arts are not a product or service. If you want to get it, you have to steal it. It isn't a value meal that comes with fries and a drink, but something YOU have to personally make work for you through dedication, blood, tears, and time. Having a good teacher is important, but the bottom line is that it is up to you. No ten step program, no discount for signing up online , just hard work that may or not yield the results you are looking for.

I'll give you a hypothetical situation. Let's say that the techniques you were learning were legit and should guarantee your wife's safety against this knife attack. Even if this is the case, she still has to perform the technique correctly, and with the right timing, strength, speed, power, effect, etc. to avoid getting stabbed. If she doesn't, no matter how good the technique, it is a moot topic.

I do get your concern, but there is more to it than what you are ranting about. Maybe when you cool down, you will see that. As always, the rule of the day is caveat emptor, so you don't get stuck with a lemon.

 

The answer is CIRCUMSTANTIAL. If 90% of the information you are producing is accurate, and 10% must be falsified for the security and integrity of the organization, yes, it very well might be ethical.

I'm well aware of many of the incidents I believe you're referring to. Each has varying degrees of ethics or lack thereof.

To correct some information that is falsified and should be made publicly accurate. Then, to create misinformation about some information that is made public and shouldn't be. The ethics are entirely situational.

 

To clarify something- that you are being taught incorrectly doesn't necessarily mean that you are being taught crap.

Just that the Menkyo Kaiden you hold isn't full transmission... its techniques are adjusted slightly to give you a decent, but different interpretation, in order to show in years to come the differences between those who branched off and those who stuck around.

Just because the Kata is different, doesn't make it ineffective, just not pure transmission. And when the dust settles you get to see who stayed true to the path and who dropped off early.

Just look at those who stuck around and compare them with those that didn't, those that learned directly from Soke and a top teacher and those that chose a transmission line that was flakey at some point...

Is it wrong? Well you get to preserve the line with the most dedicated students, and those that want to learn for any other reason (and because they paid their twenty bucks) get just want they want - until later they find out that if they had taken a different approach to their studies they would have taken a different result from them.

Sounds like everyone is a winner.

 

I call BS on that part I emphasized above.:woo:

BUYING ANYTHING?! NOT A PRODUCT OR SERVICE?!

get real, even ueshiba-o'sensei had paid to learn daito ryu.

yeah, and the other party steals our money back.:evil:


FIXED:
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medical rehabilitation

, you also need to put in your

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is medical rehabilitation a business? hell, you paid for it!
what did you pay for?

A GUIDE TO HELP YOU THROUGH THE PROCESS.

 

tell me, aren't the ones who do that called SPIN DOCTORS?
the thing is, IIRC, spin doctors are paid by the one WHO NEEDS TO HAVE THE MISLEADING INFO OUT.

the ones who get that info don't pay money.

now, I ask each and everyone of you here:

WILL YOU WILLINGLY PAY TO GET LIED UPON?:evil:

truthfully, I have no qualms them releasing errata all the time if they want to cover up something. but PAYING FOR THAT COVER-UP AND SPENDING TIME ON THAT COVER-UP? you doubly waste time: time spent earning that money and time spent on getting the material.

and remember: time lost cannot be recovered

 

If money exchanges hands it is a service or a product by definition.

If you are worried about the integrity of your style then don't sell it to people - you cannot charge and claim "holier than thou" on the art.

In todays society a gun can equalise all, so "we don't want this deadly stuff to get out" doesn't cut it anymore because those who would "misuse it" rarely have the patience to learn anything in depth when a double tap works better.

All the justification based on tradition is apologist nonsense - if you sell you need to deliver...won't deliver? Don't sell