Is it right to deceive people? or charge people for false information?

Never give a sucker an even break huh? True Budo

 

Uhm, no. But if it helps for you to think that...

 

Have you petitioned for the prohibition of dummy surveillance cameras?

 

Hardly the same thing unless he is marketing the videos by saying "this doesn't actually do anything but it looks fancy so it might scare someone off"


Actually that could be a marketing pitch for most martial arts......

 

Last time I checked true budo was only transmitted directly from teacher to student, and not over videos and handbooks.

It is like this, if someone buys these things and truly wants to learn they'll find a teacher and learn properly. If they just want to get this stuff to learn on their on, then the "errors" are good enough for them. Honestly, even if the "true" way of doing things was shown, a person couldn't really learn it without a teacher because of the kuden and other points that have to be taught.

 

Then why sell them at all? It's a paradox that suggests "cher ching" to most people

 

Yes you're absolutely right in what you say. The unfortunate reality is that people are gaining grades by purchasing Black Belt courses over the net. This is not a new thing and has been around for a considerable amount of time.

There are also so many people today saying that they are true martial arts masters eg Jinichi Kawakami. I don't know much about this guy but I can appreciate how confusing and frustrating it must be for people trying to find the true path of the way of warrior, whatever that maybe.

Regards

R

 

Because they can give people interested an overview of the art. As far as Genbukan videos and books go they are for reference anyway, and if you've had the proper instruction then the "errors" don't matter. It isn't like these "errors" are so blatently wrong that the essence of the technique is missed. Overall, what you see will be "ok," but not necessarily the exact way you'll learn it in the dojo. It certainly isn't something that people should be that up in arms about. Keep in mind actual densho don't tell you everything you need to know either, so think of it in those lines.

 

Two cents from the outside ...

The thing that I believe is confusing you is in how the Japanese martial arts work. When you join a dojo, your fees are being paid to support the dojo, not to pay for techniques. If you stay with the dojo, you will learn. What and how you learn depends upon how long you've been practicing. If you don't wish to stay with the dojo, then you stop paying the fees and leave. I've never come across any Japanese martial arts dojo that had a menu of "techniques" with associated prices attached to them. That's not how the Japanese martial arts work.

 

I can live with that as long as they are marketed as such.

I remember viewing Hatsumi's "Martial Arts of Distance" video series a while back with a booj friend. He pointed out a couple of things done "wrong" therein, presumably in the same context.

To me it still seems a half-assed way to do it. There is nothing that they can show that is that deadly or secret these days anyway, and rarely can a full essence - right or wrong - be gleaned froma video anyway.

It seems and archaic mindset for no good reason...just my outsiders view

 

In my opinion and through personal experience I have yet to find someone who really knows what is written in the Densho unless they can read old kanji and have been allowed unprecedented access to them for careful examination by experts in the language of that period and the martial arts of that time.
I have certificates signed by Hatsumi sensei form shodan to hatchidan, have been given an explanation regarding what they are supposed to say but as far as I am concerned they might as well say egg fried rice and curry sauce. Mind you I am an ex Kan of ten years and therefore probably very cynical.

regards

R

 

In the Genbukan, densho can be bought by the members for the ryu-ha that are opened up for ranking. Already translated to English too!

 

Very interesting, thanks for that!

regards

R

PS Is that Egg Fried Rice in English too???

 

Deception?

Before Manaka left the Bujinkan, those pioneers of the Eighties like Hayes and Daniels were told there were no kata in Ninjutsu. Then Manaka started going to the US doing seminars teaching kata. I don`t know if it was under Hatsumi orders or his own personal desire to help them get better. I do think it was the latter. It probably motivated him to start the Jinenkan like Tanemura and the Genbukan.

Remember the History and Tradtions book?(red and yellow) That book also classified everything in it as Ninjutsu. Later, we found out that material came from other schools.

 

I'd take pretty much everything Hayes had a hand in with a grain of salt. That includes H&T. That book shared many more parallels with Hayes's other books than with Hatsumi's other books, even though it's got Hatsumi's name on it. I'm sure his understanding of the art at the time had a good bit to do with the perception of change from then and now.

 

Hmm? Hayes said there were not kata, but that is not the same as Hatsumi telling him that. More likely he just did not understand or was using the definition most people had of kata at the time outside of Japan- solo drills like in karate.

As for Daniels, long before Manaka left the Bujinkan he was publishing articles in Ninja magazine about the katas of the various schools and teaching them. I can't recall a single statement by him saying he had been told by anyone in Japan that there were no kata.

If you read Japanese, you could have found references to kata in Hatsumi's books. Your idea that Hatsumi somehow wanted to keep the foreigners in the dark does not seem to have much to stand on.

 

to OP: ok, I got one, sort of...

well, mr. roley, not the foreigners, but SOME foreigners. namely seminar payers who hasn't done some homework.

this was taken from my old files
back when a certain forum was still open to the public, two high-ranking japanese used to post there. (I stopped lurking and documenting some of their stuff from there when they stopped posting) one of them was told to deliberately mislead to attendees as 'insurance'. FYI this was stated as the 1999 UK taikai.

my 2 cents: I don't mind some 'misleading to protect' in books or videos. but seminars? better make it a closed door/members-only, unless you allow every schmuck to be a member.

now we've seen it in the buj. in the other kans, any evidence?

 

Hi all,

I completely appreciate not sharing info to those who aren't prepared to put in the time training. I share nothing with these people myself, and agree it is the correct way to treat the traditional arts.

My question however, is around taking money for something on the basis that it is correct, when you are aware it is not.

We can say that people can't learn from books, or people shouldn't be using books as a primary learning material, which I completely agree with, but in relation to the question above I don't think it's relevant. If someone chooses to purchase something, they deserve to get what they have paid for, if it was marketing as the correct teaching, it should be the correct teaching.

If it was marketed as an overview of a ryu, and there may be differences between this and the true training, that would be fine, but this doesn't happen as people wouldn't be as eager to purchase it.

This is the point I raised, not whether teachings should be given away to those who don't deserve them.

My opinion is that if you want to keep something hidden, do exactly that, only share it with those you want to.

I have a large amount of respect for Tanemura sensei, Hatsumi, and Manaka, and don't see this as something they are doing wrong, as has been mentioned in this thread this is common practice in Japanese arts and they are only doing what many others have done, but does that make it right?

I think requests for examples have been covered off in this thread already, anyone still asking for examples probably doesn't have enough experience to properly understand the situation so I don't feel more need to be shared.

This isn't about organisation loyalty, I am extremely loyal to Genbukan, but this is a part of the overall Koryu culture that I personally don't agree with.

 

The Unholy posted

In regard to the Kata i believe what Hayes and Daniels meant was that there are no kata as performed in shotokan karate as drawn out sequences as solo movements.

in fact if one views the early book one can see movements in those books that clearly represent kata i.e koku, and in fact "History and tradition" written by Hayes has the Kata "Koku" named in that book. And that was released in 1981.

I have heard that in the early days it was forbidden by Hatsumi to give the names to the kata, and then when Manaka went to the USA he started teaching the kata with names. I remember Hayes telling me that he was stunned when Manaka started doing this.

 

Remember though, SKH was the guy when told to tell the class to divide into two groups (hanbum半分) he went and picked up a hanbo(半棒). He has never been known for his Japanese ability... A lot of mistakes and unfounded beliefs about ninjutsu can be attributed to the 80s, when it was popularized by everyone and their momma without any quality control, and less actual knowledge about ninjutsu.

You should take life with a grain of salt. Martial arts, you should be responsible for yourself. In some martial arts, they didn't take money, or it was seen as a formality. Anyone seeing it as a business transaction probably shouldn't be studying traditional Japanese martial arts but should stick to strip mall dojos with Sensei Rob's and such.