is it a good idea to shadow box whilst holding weights?

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by andysparx, Jun 26, 2007.

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  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    ok, you lost me.. what were you talking about then ?

    Did you not bring up baseball :confused:

    Nah.. Only if I wanted to kill myself.. which i don't. see the fallacy yet ?

    You just can't stomach that a pro sportman can be so amazing and still do domething 'stupid' (in your eyes). I feel a bit sorry for you.

    i guess your life will be full of dissapointments, just like this one.
     
  2. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    And I agree with this. But, being as the majority of us are not pro athletes and do not have the luxury of training all day long, it makes sense to maximize what will help us and get rid of what only maybe "sorta" might be useful, doesn't it?

    Let's try using a different example then, and we'll make it a pretty obvious one. Say you and a friend are having a contest to see who can do 100 push-ups in the shortest amount of time, with no time limit and the clock runs until you're done. For simplicity, you both weigh 200 pounds. Your friend trains his push-ups diligently. You decide to bench press 60% of your weight (roughly 120 pounds, or about how much a push-up is estimated to lift during the movement) and keep benching it until you reach 100 times.

    So now it's the day to do push-ups. Who do you think will do the push-ups the fastest? You've both essentially done the same thing, worked the same amount of muscles the same time and strengthened everything in the same way. However, your muscles are responding to different stimuli because two different pathways have been trained. Pushing the floor is different from pushing a barbell and uses a different motion. Think of it as a baseball player trying to improve his pitch by throwing a football. Similar motion, but different pathways.

    To make it even more interesting, what if you and your friend switched? Just because you do 100 push-ups fast does not necessarily mean you can bench press 120 100 times just as fast, nor vice versa. Just because you can throw a punch with a 3lb dumbbell in your hand doesn't necessarily mean you can throw a faster or stronger punch without one in your hand. This is called the General Adaptation Syndrome. Your body is training a different pathway from what you're originally doing. You're adapting to punch with 3 pound dumbbells which does nothing really for punching without as again, two different pathways. Punching with 3lb dumbbells will only make you better at punching with 3lb dumbbells.

    And, just as another thing to dwell on, 16oz gloves are used primarily to condition a fighter's shoulders since they're holding up a heavier glove than they'd be wearing during a fight. If you want to ride an exercise bike while holding a pair of 3lb dumbbells up, that's fine and will probably be a good conditioning exercise that will carry over. Once you start punching with it though, it's training something completely different from a regular punch.
     
  3. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Yes- as an analogy.
    Sorry? I'm pretty comfortable with the fact that somebody who's good at something can also do something cretinous. Happens all the time.
     
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Sorry Kuma, This isn't to be glib. But did I miss the bit where this is 'bad' ?

    As I've said more than once now. The main reason (I have) for doing this that I put forward is to better my physical endurence in a similar(ish) activity.
     
  5. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Fighters do all sorts of strange and silly things, let's not forget that. When de la Hoya was training to fight Mayweather back in '07, Oscar:

    **Peed himself during his runs rather than stop
    **Chased chickens
    **Was allowed to have sex with his wife but was forbidden to reach climax
    **Full body nude greasedown with a combination of salt, vinegar, and oil

    That's just the tip of the iceberg that some of these guys did. Dempsey used to soak his hands and face in brine to toughen them up and chew tree sap to strengthen his jaw. Floyd Patterson would chew his meat until he got out all the juices and then spit it back out, saying it aided his digestion.

    Do any of these things really have any merit? Aside from the extra cardio from chasing chickens, not really. But people do weird things because, let's face it, people are fricking weird.
     
  6. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    If you want to get better at punching for long periods of time, why not just (interestingly enough) punch for long periods of time?
     
  7. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    aye, it ain't a good one.

    hmm.. yea, so you keep saying. i hear ya, I really do. You think it is cretinous. I've got it - loud and clear. Idiotic, cretinous, Houston I think a clue is emerging here.

    Good, we're clear!
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    because all things being equal, this adds an intensity, difficulty and resistence that otherwise wouldn't be there. In other words - same time, same pace = more work done.

    in many other exercises this isn't an issue. i don't think it has to be one here either. it just depends what filter you choose to look at it through.
     
  9. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    fairplay to that. We shouldn't then discourage placebo effects ?

    That's another matter. but what i get from the above is that, maybe we should count ourselves lucky that the most cretinous thing we do for training is pick up a few pounds to throw punches with.

    For sure I do other stupid crap like stand still for a bit, go figure. Total waste of anyones good time!
     
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Awesome!

    it looks like i bored everyone to death.
     
  11. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    More work, maybe, but is it more beneficial for what you're trying to do? And that is, punch for longer periods of time? Or would upping the intensity of your regular training in that shorter period of time be better? Also, additional resistance means slower than before, so you're not getting the same volume. Things to keep in mind.

    Watch how fast Pacquiao practices his shadowboxing in the beginning of this video and you'll see what I mean. If you're not doing standard shadowboxing as fast as this, you can easily up the intensity by doing so.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdwt7IudiKk"]Manny Pacquiao Training - YouTube[/ame]

    Just out of curiousity cloudz, have you ever trained in boxing?
     
  12. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    No, no, you've misunderstood again. It's not that I think it's cretinous, it's that it, in and of itself, is inherently cretinous.
     
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Many people actually do shadow box with just 16oz. gloves on. Many don't and use DB's it's all down to whatever gym they're at or whatever coach they're training under.

    In terms of distribution of weight... you're splitting hairs. There isn't going to be that much difference in distribution of weight between holding a dumbbell and a boxing glove. I've done both and do both and there isn't any significant difference. Certainly there's never been any study showing there to be any difference.

    There are however bag gloves that come with small weights in them that are distributed along the same axis as the handle of a DB. So someone has played around with the concept (Everlast?).

    In terms of cost... again... most boxing gyms are going to have a dumbbell rack kicking around. So it's not ever going to be a cost saving issue. Dumbbells are not where anyone is going to look to cut costs because they're cheap as anyhow.
     
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yea.. i train regular shadowboxing as well at various paces including full speed. Listen you're not talking to a mug who doesn't know his own body and what he's doing with it.

    When I do this exercise I go at full intensity. If you had bothered to read my first post on this thread which is a few pages back I describe exactly how i approach this.

    I might not be working at the same pace over all compared to reg. shadowboxing at full speed, but it is harder work. What's difficult to undertand about that ?

    It's also simple punching like just uppercuts, ot just hooks etc. so it is not the same as normal shadowboxing - it's a fixed drill.

    This only serves to make a mountain out of a molehill - I'm not religious about the exercise, it's just another way to train and I can get something out of it.

    When I had a heavy bag at home, i would much prefer to do punch out drills on that with gloves on. sadly it had to go, but I'm planning a move soon so i hope to have it back. I was introduced to this by a trainer - and the way he had us do it, I can see (and feel!) the value. It isn't harmful.. So, why such a big fuss ?




    yes, I first boxed when I was still in short trousers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2010
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Always nice to know where you are with things. Yours is a happy happy place, after all..:rolleyes:
     
  16. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    If you saw someone training in a way that could be potentially harmful to them in the future, wouldn't you say something?

    But, if you want to keep doing it anyways, by all means. Not my body or my training, I suppose.
     
  17. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    This isn't about teaching or learning a sport specific movement. it's not how i learn to punch. i just use it as a way to put gas in the tank for punching.

    I bet it would if I gave you one that was too heavy for you. It's the same principle. And it isn't inherently dangerous as you keep suggesting - if done with a tiny bit of common sense - no different to other exercise. Don't overdo the weight you can handle, keep correct form. Don't lock out joints etc.

    You have failed to show any connection with injury so far despite it being your main point, other than some completely unrelated article about tennis elbow. Pretty poor show I'm afraid.

    Seems like jumping off a cliff in your world is actually quite safe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2010
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    yea, you keep saying it is potentially harmful. Well plenty of exercise/ training can have that potential.

    I fail to see how that is the case, if certain parameters are kept. You havn't given one scrap of good evidence that if I did this a few times a week say the way i described, it will harm me down the road. Sometimes a bit of concern is nice. Sometimes it's just misplaced. But i do appreciate your input and opinion, it's not that i don't.

    cheers
     
  19. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Which it doesn't do, except by the fact that you're shadowboxing.
    No, it's inherently dangerous. The way the exercise is conducted encourages bad form.
    Not completely unrelated- it's much the same type of injury, caused by much the same process.
    Eh? I'm sorry, I don't have the time or effort to explain figures of speech and analogies to you. I suggest you spend some time improving your command of the english language.
     
  20. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    We've tried.

    Try glucosamine for your joints. Sounds like you're going to need it someday.

    That's all from me now.
     
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