Iron Shirt warning

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by soggycat, Jan 8, 2004.

  1. Marko Vesse

    Marko Vesse New Member

    quote:
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    Marko was Yang's senior student until they parted on bad terms, and Marko set up his own school.
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    This is true.

    quote:
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    Yang claims Marko did not complete training, and is therefore limited in skill.
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    You decide. Trained for 12 years. Chief Instructor for 10.

    quote:
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    Marko was asked to leave the school. There were a number of reasons behind this, but the main reason was that Marko took it upon himself to teach things that he himself had not been permitted to teach, and it was Master Yang’s feeling that Marko might unintentionally injure a student as he was not versed in the correct principles behind such training methods & techniques.

    Training within the Yang Mian System is an ongoing process, and there are certain stages of skill and attainment that one must go through in order to progress. The main reason these stages are in place is to insure quality, and most importantly the safety of the people participating. Marko did achieve a certain degree of attainment under Master Yang, and was at a stage where he was beginning to learn some more advanced methods & techniques. At this stage, he was also given permission to assist Master Yang instruct beginners in the basics. Unfortunately he was teaching his own variations, which raised justified safety concerns, and lead to his dismissal. Even more unfortunate is the fact that he has gone on to open his own school, and appears to be teaching a rudimentary form of Yang Mian, which really does raise some serious concerns.

    But anyway, so far I’ve addressed nothing but old politics which have nothing to do with the nature of the system itself.
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    This is completely not true.

    I broke ties with Martin and Yang Mian because I was not happy with the ethics within the school. Hence, evolved www.invisiblemaster.com



    Marko Vesse.
    Wu Xing Dao Master Instructor
     
  2. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Marko,
    I just want to point out that I'm not taking sides, a point I have made in the original posting.

    I am merely reporting what I have heard through the grapevine.
    So what's this about not being allowed to fraternise with other classmates in Yang's class ?
    What were the ethical practices you disagreed with?
    It's OK if if dont feel it is appropriate to discuss this in open forum....maybe just a few hints ?
    Do you agree that an Iron Shirt Episode saps up lots of Chi ?
    And one needs to replenish it afterwards ?


    Cheers,
    soggy
     
  3. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Hi Marko - welcome to the forum.

    While I'm glad you chose to reply to the allegations, to an outsider it still looks like your word against his. Can you elaborate a bit more on what happened, as it looks like there are a few very different stories flying around.

    If you've got the time, could you post your views on iron body training (maybe start another thread). It features heavily in your website but many people here have raised concern about its effect on internal health and the long-term effects. How does your system differ from conditioning in the external arts?
     
  4. jroe52

    jroe52 Valued Member

    hmmm i don't know if we learned 3 oves from iron shirt or qi'gong but our sifu taught us some breathing excersizes that we did for a few days for like 30minutes ... honestly maybe they were wing chun breathing excersizes lol

    anyways.... there are some breathing excersizes such as "gathering the chi" and "storing the chi"... if you look into things such as these maybe you could replenish your chi and feel better?

    when i'm stressed out or tired doing these really helps me feel rejuivinated, ask your instructor or look online for something similar.
     
  5. mikeyj

    mikeyj New Member

    Hi,
    don't know if anyone'e still looking at this thread as its been inactive for a bit - its interesting to read your stuff here - sounds like your breathing techniques above jroe52 are chi gung (or qi gong or chi gong - its all the same!). I've been training iron shirt chi gung for about 8 months now and so am still in the beginning stages - it takes about 2 years of continual daily practice to reach the standard of breaking breeze blocks on your head and arms with sledge hammers (if you like that sort of thing!). The training is a combination of exercises - external and internal.My master for iron shirt (master Tan eng Hok) is from Singapore and his descendants are from the Fujian province of China - the art i'm learning is a shaolin art and is probably closely related to Yang Mian's art as I have heard he is a white crane practitioner too (which is a Southern Shaolin style).
    Any way enough of the lineage stuff - lots of activities use up chi and demonstrating iron shirt definitely does - as would sparring and breaking bricks and any hard physical activity - but as far as I've been told you can replace your chi with soft chi gung breathing exercises though. The reason daoists would refrain from this kind of thing is because they are saving their chi to prolong life. This is all dependant on your philosophy of life - personally I'm here for a good time not necessarily a long one!
    Anyway - good to read your stuff - Mike.
     
  6. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Hello,

    Well I thought I would add a few comments.

    There are specific QiGong exercises that replenish and restore the Qi in your TanTiens and eight Qi vessels. In fact anyone who is familiar with the microcosmic orbit circulating exercises, should know (though depending on the strength of the Qi used, also depending on its origins and practitioners ability) that every time a circulation is completed it deposits Qi in to the eight Qi vessels which in turn regulate the Qi in your organs, hence the practice improves organ function and overall health. Furthermore Qi can also be replenished in to the Macrocosmic orbit through specific exercises, once again filling up the body with Qi. Finally according to Yin/Yang principles one must give in order to receive (this principle is inherent in most mainstream religions), hence as soon as you are using your Qi, you are receiving Qi, otherwise you would be getting dead, so to speak. In fact training Iron Shirt, with the methods that I’m familiar with actually packs Qi in to your body. An example of this is external Iron Shirt training, i.e. the practitioner repeatedly hits for example his/her forearm, since hitting is a active action it in turn is of Yang origin, thus since the forearm absorbs the hit it is passive and therefore Yin, and between the two occurs a Qi (energy) exchange, i.e. the forearm becomes more Yang/harder and the hitting implement becomes more Yin/softer. It is the same with internal methods, except they deal with more subtle energies, which I believe are harder to control but more potent in their manifestation. Anyway that’s what I think, may be totally wrong, but who knows, I don’t.

    ZB
     
  7. gerard

    gerard Valued Member

    Zillabilla, I agree 100% with what you're saying. However, let me add here that all roads lead to Rome but some are safer than others. I rather got for the safest method (Yin) which is also in line with classical Taoist philosophy: be yielding, like water. Soft conquers hard, etc. This stuff applied to Qigong makes it safe and simple.

    Regards.
     
  8. mikeyj

    mikeyj New Member

    Thnaks for your reply Zilla Billa - lots of food for thought - I agree most (all?) processes would have an exchange of Chi involved but this is not always an equal exchange - surely we are all getting dead - some quicker than others depending on life style and activities?
     
  9. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    It requires no training whatsoever to achieve this. Chow Gar sifu Paul Whitrod has broken/will break concrete on the head of anybody who thinks otherwise. He is a great realist.

    Rgds,
    David
     
  10. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    I’m sure we are all getting dead, in fact had we not been getting dead I would think we would never be alive, Yin/death & Yang/life feed off each other, maybe, I guess the only way to answer that is to see a great person, or become a great person, I guess we all find out at some point. Wise words Gerard, I would think there is no point doing anything that would damage self in order to attain a protective ability, its kind of contradictory, hence there is no point in forcing it, i.e. be yielding like water, but not too yielding, perfection is in balance, strength and flexibility. This whole IMA business, if we can call it that, is a very fine line to tread, too soft and not enough work done, too hard and damage is done, however I find solace in reading Liu I-Ming’s (Taoist Adept) interpretation of the “I Ching”, translated by Thomas Cleary, Shambhala books, entitled “The Taoist I Ching”, available from Amazon. It is a very specific guide to internal alchemy , I highly recommend it and would dare to call it a bible on such matters, however I would not recommend it to someone who does not know anything and/or is not interested in internal alchemy, as it would read like a bunch of gibberish, and would also recommend anyone reading this book to brush up on Taoist metaphors and symbolism, though I think a breakdown is included somewhere in the book.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2004
  11. mikeyj

    mikeyj New Member

    David, I have read my bit above and now totally agree with you - it takes no training at all to smash things on your head :)
     
  12. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Its one thing having breeze blocks smashed on your head under controlled circumstances in a controlled environment, but if you’re training specifically to do that, might as well join the circus. However its something quite different when you get hit in the head by someone and the difference between getting beaten to a pulp and being able to defend one self is a matter of your brain not rattling against your skull, thus giving you a concussion, which feels particularly horrible the next morning, especially coupled with a monster hangover. In any case, I have had the pleasure of hitting someone in the head, who had a 'golden bell cover' or 'iron head', as a result of which I bruised my knuckles, though I was hitting him in the forehead and I’m sure if you do that to anyone, you will find their forehead quite durable, as it is the thickest part of the skull. The real test would be if someone dropped a plant pot on your head from a few floors up and as a result you either ended up with a fractured skull, which would indicate your training did not work or alternatively you felt as if a someone dropped a feather pillow on your head, which would indicate your training worked, or so I would think. In any case such an ability would be quite useful for defense purpose, especially if you regularly walk past a high rise building, occupied by clumsy gardeners who do their gardening on their balconies and outside their windows as to avoid getting soil and plant debris on their Persian carpets. But, it is always better to be safe than to be sorry or dead. Best to consult an expert.
     
  13. gerard

    gerard Valued Member


    Taoists were smart enough to reveal only part their knowledge (like good Shamans) behind metaphors and symbols in order to attract only true adepts. It's a bit like sorcery you won't believe until you experience it yourself.


    True reality is out there but Karma will determine who are ready and who are not to experience it. As Don Juan said to Castaneda:


    Nothing in the world is a gift. Whatever there is to learn has to be learned the hard way. Turn my concepts into a viable way of life by a process of repetition. Everything new in our lives, such as the sorcerers' concepts I am teaching you, must be repeated to us to the point of exhaustion before we open ourselves to it.
     
  14. ZillaBilla

    ZillaBilla Banned Banned

    Hey Gerard,

    Recently you posted an interview with B.K. Frantzis, re: An Informal Discussion on Taoist Meditation, Part 2. Further to this interview, I looked up the first part of this series on the same website (http://www.energyarts.com/hires/library/media/qisummer94.html), once again a very deep and insightful discussion with Mr. Frantzis, in the interview he mentions “The Taoist Canon consisting of close to 1,600 books that include the subject of Taoist meditation has not been translated into English. The rest of the world has not seen it yet. This limits access to the complete view of the whole picture.”, thus I will have to reiterate your point “Taoists were smart enough to reveal only part their knowledge (like good Shamans) behind metaphors and symbols in order to attract only true adepts. It's a bit like sorcery you won't believe until you experience it yourself.” , and further add that the spoken word is a product of the thinking mind (Temporal) which can only abstractedly point towards the Tao and the use of the ‘mind of Tao’ (Primordial), thus practice/experience is of paramount importance compared to mere pondering on philosophy and theory, in fact in the ‘I Ching’ is a line which states something like “The fool admires the Tao, the true man practices it”, but in any case with the amount of so called ‘watering down’ and subjective interpretation of true knowledge that exists everywhere, as much as in great and lowly schools and places like this website, perhaps as a result of duality of all phenomenon which exists as much outside the world as it does in the mind. Never the less, I think it would be of benefit to study “The Taoist Canon” mentioned earlier, as perhaps it had been written by people who have more than most, developed themselves to judge objectively, thus leaving their words to be understood in their true essence by objective minds. Since the interview mentioned a forehand, ten years have past, so hopefully some of these writings have now been translated, if anyone knows of such translations, it would be to the benefit of many IMA’ists to share such knowledge or its possible whereabouts. Alternatively one could always learn some Chinese dialect and search out such writings, though life is difficult enough as is. Once again the lessons of the ‘Tao’ i.e. single mindedness to the task, perseverance, relaxation and sincerity, demonstrates the characteristics needed to achieve one’s task. Anyway I think this is enough rambling for one post, enjoy.

    ZB
     
  15. bobW

    bobW New Member

    This is not 'iron shirt' but 'steel body',one of many systems within Master Yang & Master Marko's system.When I last spoke with Marko, one of the decendants of this system was 96 yrs-old and able to do moving Qigong exercises with amazing ability- by anyones standards.
    Master Marko trained under Master Yang for 11 years and was taught a great majority of the system. On a trip to china he met with the Grand Master.
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    [​IMG]

    I pronounce thee.....annoying!
     
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Last edited: May 11, 2011
  18. [​IMG]


    Osu,


    Sorry to say, this is fake...
    Real guys iron their shirts in underpants... when they already wear a perfectly good shirt, none would iron another one... :D:D

    Seriously, do the guys that posted on page one really believe what they posted???


    Osu!
     
  19. [​IMG]


    Osu,


    Sorry to say, this is fake...
    Real guys iron their shirts in underpants... when they already wear a perfectly good shirt, none would iron another one... :D:D

    Seriously, do the guys that posted on page one really believe what they posted???


    Osu!
     
  20. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

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