Irish cane fighting compared to FMA???

to be fair most fights in britain also happen when people are drunk, using pool cue's broken bottles etc!! Its not just the irish lol!!

 

Or Aussie!

 

Bambi

please lads...if yis come to ireland you wont find any of this stuff, because it doesnt exist here and tbh i'd be pretty sceptical that it ever did. Especially that whiskey stick dance malarky... uisce beatha bata rince..the words dont even scan right lol

 

The Irish method

Hi Bambi...

I was skeptical and I'm interested in your observations being in Ireland, I don't know about the Whiskey Stick method but I met with a Co. Antrim man, (John Ramsey) who was on a visit to Glasgow a few weeks back. He took me through some basic moves on Irish cudgel which his father had shown him.
He seemed genuine enough, knew little of Asian MA, hadn't used a rattan stick, hadn't done padded sparring but still gave me the impression he could handle himself stick or not... "When you knock him down, jump on his belly"... was just one of his words of Irish wisdom.

There are definitely written records of an stick-fighting method and stick drill-dances performed in the countryside (Droghedy's March).

Irish Gangs and Stick-Fighting In The Works of William Carleton, is a collection of stories about Irish stick-fighters, written in the 19th century, by the Irish author William Carleton. Carleton was an Irish stick-fighter himself, and this is the first time that all of his tales about stick-fighting have been collected in a single volume. The stories provide many details about Irish methods of fighting in the 19th century, and great insights into the fighting culture and code - .

With some 20 years experience involving Chinese, FMA & Indonesian MA this Irish method was certainly unfamiliar, the closest resemblence to anything I have seen was when Elhiggito performed a bit of Krabi Krabong on me!

For some detail on our meeting see the WMA forum

Louie

 

Failte Romhat Louie,
As far as I know there is no Irish stick fighting method that has been passed down from generation to generation. The present day stick fighting method is created by revivalist and reconstruction people. Uisce Beatha by the way means the 'waters of life' and not whiskey dancing. Though 'rince' does mean dancing.
I know of no manuals or references in the Irish Folklore collection or early Irish manuscripts of Irish stick training methods. Although the Irish Folklore Comission does have numerous references to oral stories that were collected and transcribed about these fights.
In the 19th Century Ireland suffered two devastating famines. The result of which the eight million inhabitants before the famine were reduced to one million by the 1900s.
Before the Potato Famine over four million of these people spoke Irish and by the 1900s the remaining one million learned to speak english to survive. A saying from the time is Irish (language) will butter no bread.
With the loss of seven million people from Ireland a large proportion of the oral culture and wisdom that was passed on from generation to generation was lost. There was no need for a famine to exist. Export Records show that at that time Ireland exported thousands of tons of wheat, barley and oats to Britain during that time, this grain was taken as rent by the Landlords and the British Government.
As to the references for stick fighting in the past I also would like to add these.
In the 11th Century 'Yellow Book of Lecan', the term Troid Scaithagid is mentioned. which means 'shield defence' which seem to refer to a self defence system used by monks when travelling.
In the 'Lebor Gabala' (Book of Conquests) The first inter tribal hurling match between the youth of the Tuathe De Danann and the Fir Bolg resulted in the death of the former. They were beaten to death by the Hurling sticks of the Fir Bolg. Maybe this is the first reference to stick fighting.
Seamus McManus in his Book the 'Story of the Irish Race' mentions that after the 1690 rebellion that roughly 40,000 swordsmen left Ireland every year to fight in European wars.
Padraig Colum in his book the 'Treasury of Irish Folklore' quotes a traveller to Ireland as describing the Irish stick fighting method as more like a fencing method than brute strenght. It was more like fencing.
The Clare Champion Newspaper has a reference to Faction Fights where this stick fighting resulted in the death of one opponent called the russian. The other opponent had inserted lead in to his stick to make it heavier and is quoted as saying to the judge that you shouldn't be at a fight if you have a thin skull.
During the English occupation they enacted the Penal Laws on the Irish people and destroyed as much a eighty percent of the Irish manuscripts. It was illegal for an Irish man to be educated, own a book, be armed, or to own land. And so a great deal of knowledge was lost.
Up until the 1930s the Irish used to do stick dances like the Morris dances of the english references to this are found in Bealoidis the Irish Folklore Journal.
When looking at Irish stick fighting from the 17th Century onwards I believe it is important to look at the society of the time.
There were no organised police forces so you had to learn to defend yourself, your family and property. The weapons you would have dealt with were usually sticks, walking sticks or farm implements. The defensive weapon was whatever there was to hand. These were civilian martial skills and would rarely be used against the british who were armed with guns, swords and bayonets. The punishment for attacking the occupying british military was harsh and brutal. In the 18th Century in Ennis town a man named John Moloney was hung drawn and quartered for an offence and his body parts were left on the city gates. These were brutal times and punishment were lethal. According to records over one hundred thousand families were evicted from their homes during the famine period. These homeless people were put on coffin ships to Australia and other parts of the british empire.
A large number of them died before they reached their destination.

I have been doing martial arts for over twenty five years.
Anyone that has done the Irish sport of hurling knows how and where to hit with a stick. The ball itself has been clocked at over 100 mjiles an hour. The clashes between teams to get control of the ball is a life and death experience. Everything exists within the game, skill, distance, timing strategy, luck. It mirrors martial arts and it is over in a flash.
I presently live in the Netherland. I come from Limerick City,Ireland. I train in Combat Karate, Shaolin Chang Chuan, Shaolin Ngor Chor, Ryukyu Kobudo, Shindo Muso Ryu Jo and Katori Shinto Ryu.

I must admit I would love to find proof of the existence of an Irish martial art that has survived to the present day, but as yet I have not. This is not to say whether the techniques in the present day Irish Stick Fighting systems are effective or not. I am sure that many are effective, but unfortunately it is very hard to verify whether they are recreated or bolstered by borrowed techniques from other martial arts. I hope that the Irish stick fighters continue making their art popular and that someday they can show me and others historical proof of its existence from times past.

I hold a degree in Celtic Civilisation and Folklore from University College Cork, Ireland.
While I was in university there was a mature student researching a paper on Faction Fighting for the History Department.
For the record I dont drink that often, fight with pool ques or bottles and neither do a large majority of Irish people. I practice battle reenactment to see what techniques can be used in combat situations.

Slainte Brian Moloney

 

Brian a chara, conas ata tu? Aon sceal a mhac? Ceard faoi an traenail?
Was wondering where you'ed got to? Not trying to be nit-picking but one Irish martial art that has survived to the present day is Celtic Wrestling (one of my students used to take part in the Celtic Games). As regards Irish stickfighting I have also tried in vain to research the subject and the only thing I've managed to find out for definate was that stickfighting did exist but was looked down upon socially, and one was thought to be of a lower class if one took part in anykind of stickfight. Mind you faction fighting/bare knuckle fighting didn't seem to have the same stigma attached to it.

 

Irish MA

Hi Brian...

Thanks for your interesting reply...

I've included this link to an Irish stick drill / morris type dance which may be of interest....(Droghedy's March)

http://www.geocities.com/cinaet/droghedy.html

Having been involved in MA for around the same time as yourself, I obviously have to take a person's claims at face value when they say that their Irish father showed them various stick techniques...
If your ever in Co. Antrim you should look out John Ramsay, I'm sure he'd be happy to give you a demonstration and you can decide for yourself

Slainte Louie

 

It is only in my adult years that I now realise what I had in front of me was more than just my Grandfather diciplining me, he was a known pugilist and was keen on rapping with his stick. Looking back on it in a way he was trying show me what he had to offer.

It was only after I took up FMA that I started to remember the days as a young boy being whipped with his stick and started to see similarities, but by then it was too late.

Stick fighting in both Britain and Ireland (bearing in mind their close proximity and relationships al be it in dispute over hundreds of years) has had it's practioners, records of English and Scottish stick fighting still exist within the archives of the British Library, and I am sure records must have existed and may still do regarding Irish stick fighting, many of those records may well have been destroyed over the eyars, but that does not mean it did not exist in the first place.

Take a look at the most famous item to come out of Ireland after Guiness and the 4 leaf clover, it is a stick that is not just used for walking, and I am sure many people carried one and it has to be accepted that a few mastered is use. It is a shaleighly that I am talking about, a stick not just used for walking, when all other forms of arms are banned, man will find the humble stick for walking and self defence.

Best regards

Pat

 

Brian a chara ta phost agat!

[trans (courtesy of Brian) Brian, my friend post/email for you. - Matt the Mod]

 

Hi Dave,
Hope you are well, I know you are new to this forum so you may not realise that all responces are supposed to be made in English, many Filipino's particularly on the FMA threads have from time to time spoken in Filipino only to be told to translate what they have said in to English, I think it only fair that you too abide by the MAP rules and translate your quote into English, as not to many Pinoy's or Westerners for that matter understand Gaelic.

Best regards

Pat

 

Hello Pat,
Thank you very much for your reference to the British Library.

As I had forgotten to mention that they have a lot of reference material on martial history in their vast collection. The Leed's Armoury in England also has a lot of info on stick fighting methods. As well as a few video's on martial history and their techniques.

Below is some further information on European stick fighting. I know it is straying a bit from the forum topic but I hope it will be of interest to other forum members.

In the Lisbon Ethnological Museum in Portugal their is an archive film of a German Stick Fighting demo from the 1930's. I believe they also have the archive film of the Portugese method of rifle and bayonet drills that originated from the Portugese Stick Fighting system that were used up until the WW2.

Along with the French, the Canary Islands also have their own stick fighting method that still exists.

By the way the email written in the Irish language from Dave was to me.
It translates as:- Brian a chara ta phost agat!

Brian, my friend post/email for you.

Slainte Brian

 

Cheers Brian,
Great stuff I am sure many will be interested, luckely I only live 15 miles from the Leeds Armoury and I have visited them a few time, great exhibition but some of the info, particularly on the FMA weaponry side is more than lacking, especially when the think a Balisong (Batangas) Knife is displayed as being a Tiawanese knife just because it has made in Taiwan on it, but yes a good place of referance.

Thanks for the translation as well I am sure our Pinoy freinds will appreaciate it as they get pulled up when they write in their local dialect and do not translate it into English, so only fair that us over this side of the water do the same and translate in to English.

Thanks for your post too, it made for very interesting reading and debate which in turn makes people think and research, which in turn helps generate more interest in any art. The Irish and British stick fighting arts are slowly gaining more interest which I feel can only be a good thing.

Best regards

Pat

 

Pat beat me to it. Any chance we can get that again in english? In the future, please include a translation of any non-English content.

- Matt