Internal power generation

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Simon, Jun 21, 2016.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    One of my students had learned only the 1s 8 moves of Taiji forms became a Chi master later on. One day he touched me and said that I had strong Chi. I assume a Chi master's teacher must be a Chi master by default.

    If you can get 100 persons, let a Chi master to train them and see how many of them can feel Chi. IMO, that will be the scientific way to prove whether Chi exist or not.

    If God can stand on the cloud and said, "I'm here", the whole earth population will turn into Christian.
     
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In this forum, we try not to discuss "abstract" subjects such as:

    - Rotations in movement
    - Shen in the eyes?
    - water and fire
    - How we walk
    - Origin of "circling the square"?
    - Zhang Sanfeng
    - explosive energy vs empty energy
    - The core - training tips?
    - Plucking Up The Back: is poor posture necessary?
    - ...

    Instead, we like to talk about more fighting relatived subjects such as:

    - Hung Ga vs Shaolin
    - A bit of advice really…grappling styles
    - Double end punch bag cords
    - The Technique Thread
    - Judo For Self-Defense On The Street
    - Use leg to block a roundhouse kick
    - Why do so many schools lack good sparring?
    - ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2016
  3. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    The main body of an article I wrote a couple of years ago, regarding my opinions of 'Chi/qi'

    "WHAT IS CHI?
    First, I feel that I should make clear my personal opinion of what Chi is/isn't. From my POV:
    Chi/Ki/Qi is just energy. It's as simple as that. As humans, we take energy from the food we eat, from the air we breath, the exercise we do, etc. Qigong (energy work) are methods of improving our energy intake. Eating good food, keeping hydrated, allowing time for digestion - this can be considered 'food qigong'. It is intentional work towards improving the intake of food energy. Breath qigong is probably the most 'recognised' method of qigong, as well as the most surrounded in BS. Essentially, what breath qigong seeks to do is increase the amount of air taken in with each breath, by working with concentrated deep breathing techniques, sometimes static, and sometimes in conjunction with various movements, such as swinging of the arms. It's a similar concept as going out to the country side to get some fresh air for our health. After I've been cooped up at work all day, I step outside and take a breath of fresh air, and WHOOSH! I get a surge of energy. That is all 'Chi' is. No super powers.
    A lot of people say 'Chi' as if it is a definite term - but really, there are all different Chi's. 'Chi' the word, is the same as 'energy' the word. One word, but with different meanings. So, the Chi we get from eating food, is the energy we get from eating food. Just one word. But it is different from the Chi we get from breathing. But it's all Chi. But it's different Chi. At best, Chi is an umbrella term for different kinds of energy. Certainly nothing special. So, that is my position.
    But of course, there are several other positions, going from one extreme to another. I say 'extreme', and I'm not exaggerating. On the one side, there are people who stoutly believe that Chi is 'real' - it had an existence of its own. Some of these people go further and believe that Chi can be harnessed by humans and used to perform almost supernatural feats, such as affecting the weather and levitation, and experiencing spiritual states of consciousness. At the other end of the spectrum, there are the people who deny the existence of Chi. This denial comes from different roots, such as Chi was a term used by people in the past to describe biomechanical processes that can today be explained scientifically, or that Chi is some sort of religious belief that has no basis in reality. And in the 'no-mans-land' inbetween each extreme, there are those who are open to the possibility, and a various mixture of beliefs that further aid to muddy the water.
    So, What is Chi?
    From a Chinese perspective, Chi is believed to be the life-force that underpins all existence. The Chinese believe that Chi can be absorbed into the body via various breathing techniques and exercises, commonly known as Chi Kung (or Qi Gong in Pinyin).
    One man, who has studied extensively in the East and is a lineage holder in an ancient Taoist system of practice, is Bruce Kumar Frantzis. In his book 'The Power of Internal Martial Arts', Mr. Frantzis defines Chi as;
    "Energy, subtle life force, internal energy that empowers something to work and function. This concept underlies Chinese, Japanese and Korean culture, in which the world is perceived not purely in terms of physical matter, but also in terms of invisible energy."
    The idea of Chi being an 'invisible energy' is often the cause of scepticism surrounding the discussion of Chi. However, as Mr. Frantzis notes, this comes from the Oriental way of perceiving the world, which is different from the Western view. As I'm sure you can imagine, a lot can get lost in translation. This problem is another cause for the confusion as to what Chi is.
    Next, I would like to look at some of the practices that make use of Chi. There are several different applications of Chi, including Traditional Chinese Medicine, Martial Arts and Spiritual Development.
    In Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), Chi plays a vital role. The idea is that Chi flows through defined pathways in the body, known as meridians. Chi is stored in the lower Dan Tian, an 'elixer field', lying approximated three inches below the naval, in the center of the body. It is believed that illness occurs if Chi stagnates in the meridians, causing a blockage. These blockages prevent fresh Chi from circulating to the vital organs and body-parts, thus resulting in a weakening of the affected area. In order to clear these blockages, a patient may undergo procedures such as acupuncture, acupressure or qigong therapy. Practices such as these aim to 'dissolve' the stagnant Chi, and promote the flow of fresh Chi, thus restoring health.
    Within the field of Martial Arts, the concept of Chi is probably the most misunderstood. Some people believe that Chi is able to give them some sort of 'super-human' powers, such as being able to affect an opponent without touching them, or to be able to send some sort of "Chi Blast" to defeat an attacker. The "truth" of Chi within the martial arts is much simpler, and much more every-day than this.
    The first point to look at refers back to the applications of Chi with the medical field. Using Chi to keep the body healthy and strong is the first application of Chi within the martial arts. Next, Chi can supposedly be trained and refined to allow a practitioner to 'feel' his opponents intention and structure with only the slightest touch, whilst also hiding your own. This is referred to as "listening skill". The offensive side of Chi lies in Jin training. Jin is an expression of the energetic power within the body. This allows the physical body to remain as relaxed as possible in the muscular structure, whilst the Jin manifests the movements, such as expansive, rising power (Peng Jin), straight forward power (Ji Jin) or rending power (Liat Jin). It is often this part of Chi training that leads people to believe that Chi is biomechanics in action. And, whilst biomechanics certainly play a part, they are not the full story. One can move one's body with perfect structure, but without the supporting Chi/Jin training, the movements will be devoid of martial power.
    "

    So, to me, all of this discussion of "can chi be scientifically proven" is totally irrelevant, because in my mind, it's not a 'thing', but an old umbrella under which already-measured units are understood (calories, etc).

    Again, the discussions of 'is it "internal" or "external"' is again, irrelevant. Particularly within the parameters of Tai Chi Chuan, everything has to be BOTH - if you seperate 'internal' from 'external' you are, by definition, no longer 'Tai Chi'.
    And, again "in my mind" - every good martial artist, from Karate-ka to Muay Thai boxers look to relax their movements, move efficiently, and deliver whole-body power in their strikes.
    The 'internal' arts just make more of a hullabaloo about it all.
     
  4. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Then chi as a term is so broad that it is useless. And while it may not be important to you it is important to a lot of us because regardless of whether it's your intention or not when when you say that chi is just energy and/or it can do this or that, it's a scientific claim.

    For example this is a scientific claim: "Chi can supposedly be trained and refined to allow a practitioner to 'feel' his opponents intention and structure with only the slightest touch, whilst also hiding your own."

    We have perfect explanation of what that is and exactly how it works. It is called cold reading and using ancient Chinese terminology to is not required to explain it.
     
  5. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    There you have it :)
    And yet, members have spent the last dozen pages debating it. :whistle:

    Ho hum...

    Internal Martial Arts might just be the modern day 'Tower of Babel' :p We all talk about the same concepts, but damned if we can use a common tongue, with universally agreed definitions! :D :D
     
  6. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Also, just as an addition - bolded for clarity ;)
     
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If you say you

    - don't believe in Chi, people will not only say that you are no good. they will also say that your teacher is no good.
    - believe in Chi, people will ask you to prove it.

    It's a lose-lose situation to discuss this subject no matter which side you may be in.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2016
  8. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    But how do you know that? The only way to know that is to train both this and wrestling. It's entirely possible you could train in this style, and become a better wrestler and better at single leg takedowns and defenses.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Here's a hint: he has ;)
     
  10. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    OK if he's trained in both Hung gar dynamic tension exercises and wrestling, how could someone say the video isn't helpful at all? He's basically breathing and stretching in a Hung gar Internal way in the video. Isn't stretching and dynamic tension like this important in wrestling training and competition? There are seated and prone Internal exercises in Hung gar too that are basically the same kind of thing. A lot of it is for working out tension in the body. Is it really fair to say there aren't common elements?

    Was it meant not helpful to them personally? Sure for a very experienced person this video is not helpful for much at all let alone single legs, but I was trying avert the whole 'qi' discussion and failed miserably.

    I was talking about the tension training itself and the concepts being illustrated.

    It's a short clip, not much time to invest. :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2016
  11. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Chi is like double Godwin's Law. The only power it has for certain is to ruin discussions.
     
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    We can try too many things in our lives. The question is do we have that extra time or not.

    You first define your goal. You then find a path to help you to get there. There are many paths that may lead you to different destinations. Sometime you just have to give up those paths and stay on your own path.

    To be honest, if you ask me whether "dynamic tension exercises" can help wrestling or not. My answer will be "not much". Of course to be strong is always good for any MA. There will be no argument there. By using that argument, running, swimming, dancing, can also help wrestling in some way.

    In wrestling, by twisting cane bundle to develop grip strength may be similar to the "Hung gar dynamic tension exercises".

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-A5NJpNkKc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-A5NJpNkKc[/ame]

    Besides Chinese wrestling, I have cross trained long fist, praying mantis, Baji, Zimen, WC, white ape, Lohan, Taiji, and XingYi. I only find out that the praying mantis "fast hand combo" can be used to set up a throw. Others truly don't help wrestling very much. The reason is simple. In wrestling you want to apply 2 different force vectors at the same time.

    For example, for

    - "single leg", you want to train push shoulder and pull leg at the same time.
    - "foot sweep", you want to train push head down and sweep leg up at the same time.
    - ...

    The wrestling requires to work on 2 or 3 contact points at the same time. Since most of the striking art systems only require 1 contact point and 1 directional force vector, it won't help your wrestling skill much.

    Back to the "internal" subject. IMO, a wrestler can live without "internal" and he won't miss anything.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    He may not miss anything in the terms that he won't be held back by it, but couldn't he gain something by studying it? Isn't that the whole point behind learning new ideas and ways to train? The time involved is pretty irrelevant, you can learn anything new in a day, a year, or 100 years right? There is a lot of wrestling in Chinese martial arts, so why is how it is trained or the insights derived that much different? Physically it's all the same stuff, no? If it's the fake sort of stuff it never works, if it's along the path of the real, it's 'work or bust'.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
  14. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    This can be a very interested research subject.

    If you can have 4 group (A, B, C, D) of 100 persons each.

    - group A train wrestling.
    - group B train wrestling plus Taiji.
    - group C train boxing.
    - group D train boxing plus Taiji.

    After 3 years, have a tournament

    - between group A and group B, and
    - between group C and group D.

    Record the tournament result then publish the paper. I believe the above testing can be done by the Chinese government.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    It will be nice that if we can see an "internal" instructor who can train many students that can produce good result in boxing ring and on wrestling map.

    When will that happen?
     
  16. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    You both are trying to state what is to be discussed or not on MAP. And, frankly, IMOyou are both wrong to be doing so.

    From the Terms of Service
    See? Pretty vague statement.:hat:

    YWH- people can discuss abstract subjects here all they want. You - or anyone else here - does not get to decide what is an ok or "approved" topic discussions. Nor do you get to list what isn't encouraged to be discussed- As long at the TOS is followed, people can bring up what they want.

    If it doesn't interest enough people, the thread will die quickly. Responses and interest guide the discussion. If Simon, Mitch, Aegis, and Saz (our listowners) don't state encouraged topics, why are you?

    Also, I don't know why you said "we" in that post. Who are you speaking for with your list of topics? Certainly not me. For example: I personally am NOT a fan of this style vs that style threads overall. So I am not part of your "we" when you say "we" like to discuss "Hung Gar vs Shaolin"

    Gunner - Discussion means others with differing views get to say so too. It's kind of a bummer to be on the side that isn't as popular, but such is the way things go sometimes. (Try saying you support chiropractic treatments around here!:p) But just because more people here disagree with your views on Chi than agree does NOT make it not a martial arts forum.

     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
  17. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member


    Those who believe one way will be vindicated. Those who believe another way will look for reasons why they did not get there expected result.

    Those that trust in the scientific process will ask - "so what does this result tell us about our understanding of the subject and of the underlying processes that govern it?"
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglyFwTjfDU"]Monty Python's Holy Grail - Burn The Witch - YouTube[/ame]

    :p
     
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Matt likes to keep abreast of that kind of thing.
    http://www.polariswushu.net/halloffame.html

    Where I'm from Dan Docherty has done a pretty good job and so have a number of his guys. Some details can be found on those pages I believe.

    Sure, much of it is around the same level for TMA and civilian martial arts/ TCMA in general, in competition. Nothing wrong with that.
    I don't see anything better from the likes of you, that's for sure.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
  20. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Mike Patterson's Xing Yi folk from Nevada have won a lot of full contact fights.

    As best as I know, their system is as Internal as Dan's.
     

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