Hello everyone, I am an amateur historian and comic book writer living in the USA, you could say. I know that the ninja are not technically Chinese (although I have questions regarding the Chinese origin and Chinese founders) but I needed a marketing scheme. Calling them "Chinese Ninja" tends to draw smart people's attention because they immediately feel the urge to correct you lol. But I'm looking for links or connections to a good source of information regarding historical Chinese assassins in general and a few deeper questions that aren't so easy to answer using Google's search engine. I am already vaguely familiar with Wuxia (Chinese historical fiction), though I have never actually seen any of it myself. It sounds interesting to me. I'm also somewhat familiar with Wu Zixu, Sun Tzu, Yao Li, Zhuan Zhu, Sima Qian and the biographies of the five assassins. But I don't know enough, and I don't know where to begin. I guess I'll start with the language. Sun Tzu refers to five types of spies, which he refers to as gokan. Emperor Gao shortened gokan to kan. Sima Qian refers to five assassins, which he refers to as cike or sishi. Someone I spoke to told me that the Chinese word for a ninja is renzhe. Google makes reference to the Chinese lin-kuei and their art of an-chi. But all of this is very confusing. Could someone who is fluent in Chinese please explain to me the difference between kancho, gokan, cike, renzhe and lin-kuei? I know the lin-kuei was featured in the MK video games, but I don't remember MK ever making any references to an-chi. I was wondering what an-chi means, and if it is a real Chinese martial art like Japanese ninjutsu. Someone here on MAP already confirmed for me that there are no references to lin-kuei anywhere in history, and most of the internet seems to agree. I did find a few lin-kuei schools on Google, but none of them look legit. I did find a minor source from a couple of people here on MAP who did say that the lin-kuei was real, and that there was a link between the red amulet lin-kuei and the ninja, but the person who stated that posted it in 2004 and I'm not sure if they are active on MAP any more. Hannibal mentioned some books by Leung Ting and Li Hsing that talks about the lin-kuei, but that's about it. I was wondering if any new information about the lin-kuei has popped up since 2004? The last of my questions pertaining to this subject involves other possible Chinese sects and clans besides the lin-kuei who may have practiced ninja-like skills and techniques. Leung Ting who wrote "Skills of the Vagabonds" about the lin-kuei, I'm under the impression that he was a master from the Wing Chun school. I heard a whisper in the wind that Wing Chun may have originally been a kung-fu style for assassins, but I don't know much about it and none of the other sources I've talked to had anything to say about it. I couldn't find any other mentioning of it on the internet. Does anyone here know anything, or have you heard anything about Wing Chun being designed for assassination? Are there other kung-fu styles besides Wing Chun and An Chi that are designed for assassins, or similar to ninjutsu in nature? I know Wing Chun is not at all similar to Ninjutsu, but you know what I mean. I'm talking about some kind of Kung Fu that was created to be used by stealthy individuals, for whatever reason. I'm not sure if renzhe is the Chinese word for ninja, or ninjutsu, or if it's even the same thing as either of them. But I am very curious because I am interested in picking apart the fact from the fiction and learning more about China's secret agents of the past. Any help you can provide would be very appreciated. Thank you in advance. Always smiling, ~Obake~
That text is a well known fake, brother, and as far as Wing Chun in fact I think it's more accurate to say Wing Chun wasn't designed at all, but a collection of southern Chinese arts from a particular county.
What is your take on this? http://sifuochwingchun.com/wing-chun-kung-fu-history/chinese-assassins-espionage/ And also this guy? http://student.bard.edu/clubs/templates/template1.php?id=1343
Apart from the Lin-kuei (or the Luo-li) and Vagabond Style Kung Fu, what about An Chi? From what I gather, vagabond style kung fu, whether real or fake, is more of a magic illusionist style involving such things as bending spoons, laying on beds of knives, making potions, walking on fire, levitation and basic slight of hand type stuff. This makes vagabond style kung fu sound fairly legit, to be honest (by that I mean it sounds like a plausible set of martial skills, albeit for show), but that's besides the point. It certainly doesn't sound like An Chi, which some people refer to as a sub-style practiced by the Lin Kuei involving concealed blades and throwing weapons, such as throwing needles and ring blades twirled around the finger. This is a very different description of skills and abilities attributed to a style with a different name, which leads me to believe that An Chi is something entirely unrelated. Of course, I have never read any books by Leung Ting or Li Hsing and I certainly don't know much Chinese, so I'm not exactly sure how any of this ties together with the Lin Kuei if it's a purely fictional sect. Does anyone here have any other helpful information about An Chi, specifically? Is it a real art, or is it purely fiction? And again, could someone who is fluent in Chinese please explain to me the difference between kancho, gokan, cike, renzhe and lin-kuei? (I think I've gathered enough info about the lin-kuei, but what about the others?)
Chinese Assassins? Greetings everyone, I have a few questions regarding Chinese assassins and their kung fu styles. I was trying to draw a link between Chinese kung fu and Japanese ninjutsu. I have already asked the experts in the Ninjutsu forum, who had a lot to offer about Japanese Ninjutsu and Chinese Strategy, but their knowledge is limited when it comes to Chinese assassins. I did get this little bit of information, which does shed some light on the Chinese origins of Ninjutsu, but for leaving Japan and tracing the original routes back to China, it seems I am in need of some Chinese experts on kung fu. Here is the info I got: Can anyone here shed some more light on the subject of Chinese assassins? I'm specifically interested in the real history, not so much about fan-fiction and video games. Any information or knowledge you can provide would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance.
That is a mashup of fiction and history, brother. There are no citations for that material. But I can tell you for instance there is far more evidence for the existence of Yim Wing Chun and her family than there is Chi Sin who is more of a sort of hero figure in Southern China. There is certainly evidence of southern Chinese martial art being heavily involved in various insurgencies, but once again and I apologize for lecturing you, what that paragraph says is a pound of sand with a few diamonds inside. Silly analogy but it's a matter of seeing a big beautiful narrative and knowing full well vast portions or the entire thing is really fantasy. Sure there were Chinese assassins. There were Sumerian assassins and Hindu. Are you more interested in Ninjutsu, or assassins in general? They're not all 'interconnected' if that's what you are getting at, aside from their general roles in 'society'. I have no idea who this guy is really. Do you know him?
ok...as soon as I read your request I thought of this movie below and if you skip to the 27min : 40 sec mark, that's when they talk about some secret weapons. I know it's only a movie and it's not about historically accurate persay...and it does sway heavily in favor of the Chinese (of course) but it's still a good ol' classic. Due to copyright issues that MAP may come under fire for. No posting of full movies. Thank you.
Obake. I have merged your 2 threads together as it is essentially the same question. In the long run this would probably help you better, so any questions/answers,, you only need to find here. Thanks.
Thank you Mushroom I have my notebook with me today. I found some more information regarding Chinese assassins. There appears to be a link between Chinese opera, Japanese theater and the ninja connection. The facts are scant and there isn't really one site I can find that tells the whole story, so there isn't really a single source to go by. It's more like a giant, incomplete jigsaw puzzle with pieces scattered all over the place. Every source offers a tiny portion of the puzzle that you have to piece together for yourself, if that makes any sense. But it does appear that around the 1500's AD, there was a connection. This marks the time period of the Sengoku Jidai in Japan and the Ming Dynasty in China, which is when the art of assassination really seems to have taken a new shape in both regions. As the ninja were becoming more specialized elite black ops forces in Japan, there was an exchange of skills between the Shaolin monks and Ming armies in China, which seems to have reshaped the Chinese kung fu styles. It's important to note that assassins have existed in China and Japan prior to 1500 AD, so this is by no means the origin of it. The seeds of ninjutsu were planted long before that. But some of those ancient stories were remembered throughout history and semi-legendary assassins like Zhuan Zhu made their way into Chinese opera performances as important character roles, portrayed by the painted-face actors themselves. Zhuan Zhu was a contemporary of Sun Tzu who served King Helu during the Wu kingdom. He is best known for using the yuchang jian (fish intestine sword) to assassinate one of King Helu's rivals close to around 515 BC. Chinese assassins were known as "cike" (stabbing guests) among other things. As spies, they were known as "gokan" (ones who see). Just like the Japanese ninja, they were called many other things as well. Prior to the Ming Dynasty, there does not appear to be any historical data to suggest an organization of the Chinese assassin arts. These skills were passed one-on-one between masters and their disciples and we do not appear to see the large schools and ninja villages like we do in Japan, so the Chinese assassins were not nearly as organized, specialized or well documented. I was able to find about 16 assassins in China whose stories are preserved for us today. Their names are Yi Yin, Cao Mo, Tu Po, Zhuan Zhu, Yao Li, Yu Rang, Nie Zheng, Nie Yinniang, Jiang Ziya, Jing Ke, Zhuge Liang, Pang Tong, Ma Jun, Zhu Wen, Yao Yu Hu, Chan Busho, etc. It appears that "renzhe" (Chinese assassin skills) were heavily influenced by "chin-na" (bone breaking) and "dim-mak" (nerve strikes) found in shuai-jiao prior to the development of modern kung fu schools. This is similar to the koppojutsu or koshijutsu associated with Japanese ninja styles, although there appears to be no connection between them. They were developed in different places at different times. The end of the Ming Dynasty saw the rise of the Chinese "triads" (man, heaven and earth societies) which could be interpreted as the first organized bands of assassins, although these were not at all like the ninja. The triads used such weapons as the futou (hand axe or hatchet), like the famous Axe Gang portrayed in legends. But they also used the cuidu-bishou (poison dagger or curved fang) and the gong jian (bow and arrow) among other things. During the rise of the Qing Dynasty, many rebels who were still loyal to the Ming Dynasty would band together to create secret societies. This marks the beginning of organized assassin schools in China. One of the main disguises for these assassins was that of the Chinese opera's painted-face actors aboard the red boats. Painting their faces enabled these Chinese assassins (or triads) to disguise themselves in plain sight. Their fighting arts would be influenced by Shaolin monks and Chinese military generals who were still loyal to the Ming Dynasty at that time. As a result, Chinese renzhe (sometimes referred to as koujin) looks nothing at all like Japanese ninjutsu.
Without getting into the mud friend a lot of this is also a mashup of history and fiction. You said it yourself you are attempting to "piece together a puzzle" but unfortunately you are not using facts to build the puzzle, you are using everything you can get your hands on which will build a nice story but is flawed from a methodical perspective. Put another way, you appear to have come to conclusion and are selectively picking out data that fits your theory, as opposed to weighing evidence before trying to jump to conclusions. The sheer number of different cultures and their assassins you've brought to bear suggests you're making the relatively common mistake of assuming that by pulling together a large number of sources ('puzzle pieces') and assembling a picture, the truth will reveal itself, but unfortunately the sciences of history work differently. The mosaic you've created is colorful and interesting, but on the surface it's wrong brother. I don't say that to be critical, just trying to point out unless you go back and source some of what you claimed as 'fact' above, only maybe half are probably true. I myself am guilty of sometimes pushing what I think is a 'fact' and then being corrected. This is why it's helpful, dare I say it necessary, to move one fact at a time, instead of a dozen at a time which is your method thus far One thing I'd suggest is that instead of saying you've "found more information", you actually post the source, so it can be evaluated. Otherwise your whole story, even if there are individual pieces that ring true alongside some corroborating evidence, is largely fabricated to fit your goals, as opposed to real historical science, which builds on evidence only (legends, folk tales and so forth should be thrown out unless there is hard, physical evidence for them). You've basically yourself made a huge number of claims above that can't even be substantiated with any archaeological or anthropological evidence. I kind of warned you about this but you're basically spinning a complicated yarn you have no hope of making accurate. Instead you should be starting from individual sources. So unfortunately I have to conclude most of what you posted is wrong or perhaps inaccurate until you post where you got the information from (and by that I mean please reference a historical work, not a Wing Chun school's web page, or an online post on MAP that isn't cited). Empty your cup and start over, brother.
Thank you, The Iron Fist, I understand now what you were saying and although it's too late to start over now, it's still never too late to re-evaluate. I will try in the future to start citing sources, if I can, so MAP can knit-pick at them. Unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of access to books and movies where I live, given the current circumstances (the nearest library is too far away and has a very limited selection). So the internet has been a great asset to my research, albeit a difficult source with a very broad range that is difficult to sift through. Nevertheless, fact or fiction, I do feel that this MAP thread in particular has the most to offer concerning Chinese assassins at the moment. I may not have sifted through all of the sand to find the diamonds yet, but what I have done here is gathered all of that sand from all different sources on the internet and dumped it all right here in this thread. So that's a step in the right direction, at least. Who knows? Maybe in 11 years from now, someone on MAP will see this thread and be inspired by it, or have more to offer regarding this research (just as I was inspired by a MAP post I saw from 2004). It's a slow process, but time can either be a friend or an enemy when it comes to stuff like this. In any case, it's interesting. I guess what I'm trying to narrow in on now is the direct connection between Chinese assassin skills and Japanese ninjutsu, specifically. The Bujinkan (and its affiliated offshoots) make it clear that some of the processes that led to ninjutsu came from Cho Gyokko during the Tang dynasty. I have already stated before that Cho Gyokko is none other than Yao Yu Hu herself. Unfortunately, I lost the original source where I found that information, but here is a different source which seems to agree: http://piratesversusninjas.net/chogyokko.html The story of course goes on to tell the origins of Gyokku-ryu Ninjutsu, Koto-ryu Ninpo Koppojutsu and Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu, but that is not what I am interested in. I am more interested in Cho Gyokko herself. I am curious about the Chinese/Japanese connection during the Tang dynasty which led up to the development of ninjutsu. Another curiosity involves Prince Shotoku who predates that time period. Prince Shotoku had a shinobi named Sahito, but I can't find much info regarding Sahito and I have no idea where to look. Does anyone know of any good books, movies or websites that might help with this project? Anything specifically related to Prince Shotoku's shinobi, or to Tang China's exiles? I heard that Prince Shotoku was influenced by the Silla kingdom in Korea (which got me thinking about the semi-fictional Sulsa dark knights, Korean ninja) but I can't find a direct link anywhere.
http://piratesversusninjas.net/ is your source? Oh brother you definitely need to start over. The internet hasn't been as great an asset to your research as you seem to believe, if that is the type of website you're taking information from I won't be able to steer you proper. You referred to the 'Chinese/Japanese connection during the Tang dynasty which led up to the development of ninjutsu' so I guess you've made up your mind? I'm out of my league when it comes to historical supposition, I prefer to deal with verifiable history. As I said before I don't want to give you any suggestion that your theories are correct because I don't think it's fair to do so. What you are doing to taking narratives wholesale from various countries and periods and asking other people to evaluate them, but not providing the actual sources or citations. If you keep losing your sources, neither I nor anyone else here is going to be able to clarify anything. Try starting smaller, start with a single piece of information, and let's try to track down its validity. When you start by writing a paragraph with half a dozen claims, nobody will know which of those are true, or interrelated such that one being false means several are false. Clearly you've got a lot of material, but if you go forward assuming any of it is true without verifying it, you're building a house of straw that any fact checker worth their salt will blow over by pointing to actual historical documents, sculpture, artwork If you search brother we do this with the Shaolin Temple quite often on the site The reality in my humble opinion is that much of the story isn't even written down, which is why whenever I see written accounts of things I know wouldn't stand up to review I feel compelled to comment.
I understand your frustration. It's the same one I'm having. As I stated before, I lost my original source for my claim (or inquisitive suggestion) about Cho Gyokko, so I had to resort to citing a different source. However, as you can see on that web page, whoever wrote that page did not leave their name or cite any of their own sources, which is the same problem I am having with other people. It's a domino effect of sorts. I can't cite my sources when my sources do not cite their own sources and so on, so it all just becomes a matter of hearsay with no scientific evidence to support it. I have a question for you though. You keep mentioning "actual historical documents" a lot. I'm curious as to where I might actually find some of those actual historical documents. It's a huge world out there with millions of authors and books to be found, but being an amateur researcher, I have no idea who is legit and who is not. For example, Li Hsing, if you had not told me that his work was fictional then I may have picked it up thinking it was legit. So I guess what I'm asking is, where do I go to get my sources?
Iron Fist has the measure of it I'm afraid. You are trying to tie too many elements toghether without finding out if the elements were true or false I will give you some tips regarding historical research and its pitfalls. I did some research on a very niche area regarding medieval sardinian weapons - a kind of war javelin (which I actually managed to futher a tiny bit in my own way). In this instance the hard work was already done by other researchers but they had to contend with an established error that had festered for over 50 years. All the pitfalls you are stepping in I've done them myself. 1) Start small. 'Chinese Assassins' is far too big. Start smaller. Choose one name from above who may or may not have been an assassin. Investigate ONLY that name. 2) Do not use websites or internet postings or forums as primary sources. They should be you second from last source.(Last is probably the history channel - which has gotten worse over the years) 2) Reseach who are the 'authorities' in the field, people who have made a academic living out of making sure their facts are correct, because their work is peer reviewed (checked) The work on this kind of stuff is often published in 'academic' journals. These are good because - Forces the researcher to think carefully about what they write - lmits the field of investigation. - For every idea/opinion they have to back it up and cite each and every source they use, allowing other reserchers and experts to double check their facts and theories. This will be often in the form of a bibliography. Experts usually usually cite other experts or authorities. In a short while you will have a list of who other experts in that subject area. Two things to remember 1) academics/experts are not always right. 2) they do not always agree. 3) books are also good, but be careful. Books often are published when someone has made their mind up already on something (i.e. bored with the subject, wrapping the stuff up) and/or writes in order to make money so makes it more exciting for the reader and may put undue weight on certain issues. As a rule if the book includeds a bibliography then its better, because even if the author may have got a few things wrong he is willing to show where he got his sources from. 4) Don't be afraid to contact these academics. If you express a genuine interest often enough they will answer you questions for free. (But keep you questions simple and distinct - they are strict in that way) 4)historical documents...very hard to get your hands on! If you can great - primary sources are the A++ of historical research...but are you willing to dedicate years of you life to be willing to investigate one source ?But unless you can read ancient Chinese its going to be difficult to use. That being said there are academics that have probably done the legwork already and there might be english transcripts and academic journals. Track them down. 5) Make google books your best friend! Now be carefull, often enough all those sources you will find in bibliograhies might be available on google books. Learn how to use its search function to the max and you might find that journals/books have already been loaded on there. Sometimes you will be able to view only previews but often enough if you use the exact words you can track down the exact pages being cited. 6) Historical documents are being digitised all the time. As long as you are able to determine that a site is 'official' - older works/books get put online. 7) Be willing to accept dead ends. If there are no historical sources, academics and reserchers say they is no veracity in some lines of research, then until someone uncovers evidence to the contrary you may have to shelve your investigation. Move to the next one. But with the skills yku have developped the journey will be quicker and easier. DOUBLE CHECK EVERY SOURCE AND WRITE IT DOWN! Create your own bibliography. That way people even on MAP can follow your reasoning.
I'm copying/pasting this from another thread in the Ninjutsu section on MAP: "Combat Skills of the Lin Kuei: Heritage of the Ninja" written by Li Hsing in 1986. "China's Ninja Connection" written by Li Hsing in 1984. "Skills of the Vagabonds" written by Leung Ting in 1998. "Skills of the Vagabonds II" written by Leung Ting in 1991. "Mortal Kombat" video game developed by Midway Games in 1992. So according to the dates on here, it would seem at first glimpse that Midway Games and Leung Ting were both inspired by Li Hsing's writings. But who is Li Hsing? I could not find any information about him on the internet. If you Google his name, it comes up with all different people with similar names. Wikipedia says absolutely nothing about him. Since I don't possess a copy of any of his books about the lin kuei, I have no idea what citations he uses for his sources. "Records of the Grand Historian" written by Sima Qian in 109 BC. "Art of War" written by Sun Tzu in 500 BC Sima Qian was the historian who wrote the biographies of the five assassins: Cao Mo (c. 650 BC), Zhuan Zhu (c. 515 BC), Yu Rang (c. 550 BC), Nie Zheng (c. 400 BC), Jing Ke (c. 350 BC). Another internet source is http://history.cultural-china.com/en/50H5656H11597.html which mentions Yao Li, a contemporary of Zhuan Zhu who also served King Helu and who also was an assassin of that time period. Sima Qian uses the term "cike" (stabbing guests) to refer to these Chinese assassins. Zhuan Zhu and Yao Li were both recommended to King Helu by Wu Zixu, who also referred Sun Tzu, the author of the Art of War. Sun Tzu was the military strategist who wrote the Art of War and in the 13th chapter he refers to five types of spies, which he calls "gokan" (ones who see). These five types of spies are referred to as local spies, inward spies, converted spies, expendable spies and surviving spies. These five types of spies are also referred to in Budo-ryu Ninjutsu as inkon-no-kan, nairyo-no-kan, hantoku-no-kan, shicho-no-kan and tensei-no-kan respectively. Sun Tzu and Sima Qian have by far got the most to offer on the subject of Chinese spies and assassins. These are perhaps the only two reliable sources I have at the moment, besides what I can gather from the interweb's martial art schools and traditions like the Bujinkan, the Iga-ryu Ninja Museum in Japan and the Ving Tsun Museum in China, etc. Information is sketchy and not easy to find, often times making research difficult in these areas because facts and myths have been distorted, or because of an array of secrecy and shyness towards outsiders.
Chinese assassins were commonly known as moshuh nanren or T-zi-bu..who were successors of lin kuei and hired to protect royal family.Cike ,sishi,ren zhe ,ren shu are their synonyms only...beggar art was different and was known as yin sen shu....there were shaolin fighrers who developed another deceptive art called as "yan qing quan.." .there were secret society of rebels called "white lotus" who used martial arts for assassination too and the list goes on....
No, most if not all of that is false information brother, taken from for lack of a better term, 'fake' books on ninjas and other illegitimate material. There were no 'Lin Kuei', no 'Moshuh nanren', all of that is made up. That phrase just Chinese for "magic men" that has no place in history. Assassins had completely different names in Chinese history and language. The protectors of the royal families are fairly well documented and no "moshuh nanren" were involved. The White Lotus was a Buddhist religious sect that over the course of several hundred years, vanished but because of a history of 'protest' activity in the Yuan dynasty (13-14th century), became synonymous with later Ming/Ching era revolutionaries several hundred years later. What you wrote sure makes a colorful story, and continues to find its way into discussions about China and ninjas. But the sources are all false. It's fairly easy to pick apart piece by piece, but having seen these terms a lot, you can usually throw out entire paragraphs when you see terms like 'Lin Kuei' in them.
