But more in a serious mode now!.... __________________________________________ quote: Originally posted by YODA B]"Integrity means doing the right thing - even if nobody is watching" ___________________________________________ ........Andrew Green, (now that you have taken your meds ), you KNOW that it is the wrong thing to do as you will be HARMING an innocent creature purely without any good reason. Even a hardened criminal knows he is doing wrong when he harms someone even if he has good reason such as self-enrichment or whatever causes him to do it. Take a compulsive gambler for instance: he will gamble for self-gratification and of course to fulfil that hope of winning, but even when he loses he carries on playing. And the more he loses the more nervous he gets and even starts sweating. Yet he carries on. He KNOWS he is doing wrong even if he has no one to account to. And pursuing the act, in contradiction to what you know to be right, is a lack of integrity. Any thoughts on that? alienladd
quote: ________________________________________________ I'm very trusting ... but also realistic in my expectations. If I get stabbed in the back then I know not to trust that person any more ________________________________________________ I should say ....... after that episode the only person you need to trust is the UNDERTAKER. ) alienladd ~!~
Alienladd, Integrity = Honesty, truth, honour, veracity, reliability, uprightness (aren't the Thesaurus handy in Word!) Gamble = Risk, stake, venture, hazard, speculate, chance, bet. So different yet the same. I feel integrity is closer to conscience and honour. I know there is an honour amongst theives but not the same in my book. To trust someone - you measure their integrity perhaps? "He KNOWS he is doing wrong even if he has no one to account to. And pursuing the act, in contradiction to what you know to be right, is a lack of integrity." I agree with you Alienladd.
I try to do what I feel is the right thing, but in someones eyes I'll have done the wrong thing anyway. I, like Mr Murray, constantly fail to achieve the goals I set for myself (it'd be too easy if I could!). But if i do do something, and theres not a Moderator around, I'm I still wrong? Thanx
) There is some rather creative digi-hyroglyphics here. Yoda's list is most impressive but Andy Murray wins the prize for originality. ____________________________________________
Melanie I feel integrity is closer to conscience and honour. ------------------------ Yes I'm inclined to agree with 'integrity' being closely associated with the 'conscience'. Although I would see 'honour' more as a reward being bestowed upon you by your fellow beings. True integrity is shown by acting in accordance with your convictions/conscience even if it is contrary to popular expectations and most importantly without any expectation of a reward. Your ONLY reward is KNOWING that you have acted correctly. How do you know you have acted correctly? Ask yourself these questions: - Have I acted to satisfy pure self-interest whilst disregarding the hardship my action may cause for others? Have I acted in the interest of the well-being of my fellow beings and the world around me as well as myself? _____________________________________________ To trust someone - you measure their integrity perhaps? ________________________ I suppose you might say that; although that would be more like putting them to the test. In my own mind to trust someone is to not even consider that they might act in any other way than with integrity. But we could be splitting hairs over this one. I suppose in a way we are always 'measuring' someones integrity or other attributes. To FREEFORM I would like to say this:- If you act in accordance with your conscience then you have acted with integrity. People will often judge you by norms set by society as they don't want to be seen to contradict society norms. I have found some people will openly condemn or criticise you for your actions but secretly will admire you for your courage to stand by your convictions. Also, I don't think integrity has anything to do with goal-setting and achieving goals. It simply has to do with acting in accordance with your conscience. HBTHTTSHATTITM - (Hoo Boy, To Have To Think So Hard At This Time In The Morning) See Ya, alienladd ~!~
Alienladd, Q/ WTYPSMAOK. A/ Why thank you, please send me an Ostrich Kebab. I was lucky enough to go to South Africa a couple of years ago, and really enjoyed Ostrich meat!!! Sorry to distract from the thread! Andy
No, I don't. I've reinterpreted my religious texts and they clearly say that all cats ought to be put in the microwave. Cats are evil and should be removed from the planet. "Harming an innocent creature" - Interesting claim, is swatting a fly morally wrong? Not by most people's standards. Maybe bugs don't count, what about hunting? Contact sports? My good reason is that cats are evil and don't deserve to live in my opinion, plus microwaving them is fun. How about body mutilation? Sacrifices? Abortion? Tell me, what makes you think there are moral truths as to whether these things are wrong? Some might, others not. Knowing it is against the law is different from knowing it is wrong.
Hi Andrew, You make some interesting points here I herewith challenge you to a question and answer discussion to see how or why you have a 'arrived at this particular view'. You state: "No, I don't. I've reinterpreted my religious texts and they clearly say that all cats ought to be put in the microwave. Cats are evil and should be removed from the planet." in response to my: ........Andrew Green, (now that you have taken your meds ), you KNOW that it is the wrong thing to do as you will be HARMING an innocent creature purely without any good reason. So you felt the NEED to re-interpret your religious texts and this includes that all cats are evil and must be destroyed. (The method is not important for the argument) State your reasons for this 'NEED' - also: I must now assume that you have a definition of 'EVIL' - state your definition. AYUTTC? ) (are you up to the challenge?)
OK ... here's one that I've dredged out of my cellar ... IBSLTICRWGTU It's been so long that I can't remember who gets tied up. Mike
ok, If Ingegrity is doing what is right, how do we judge who has it and who doesn't? Right is different for each individual or geographic region. What is done on one side of the globe would probably get you 15-20 in the US lol Rob
Combination of moral nihilism and being a bit of a pain in the A$$ I felt that my previous interpretation was flawed. Opposite of Good, bad, oppose my God(s), etc. I know which things are evil based on my religious texts. None of this is really relevant though. This is just a (rather silly) example to illustrate that not everyone agrees on what "the right thing" is. In some cases what one person sees as clearly right, another sill see as clearly wrong. I'll make it easier for anyone that wants to challenge this: 1. Integrity means doing the "right thing", even when no one else knows about it" 2. The "right thing" refers to doing what is morally correct. 3. It is epistemologically impossible for us to know which moral claims are true, if in fact any are true. 4. The claim has very little meaning, as a person may be evil (as defined by the culture he is a part of, yet have integrity. Thats kind of oversimplifying it, but will give you something to argue against. I can see at least one way around it, but I'm not telling
As an alternative to reading this thread, try poking out your own eyes with hot needles. Your head will hurt less afterwards! AAAaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhhhh! AAAaaaaaaaaiiiiieeeyyyyeeeeee!
It's a pity Andrew that you are sidestepping my challenge by giving vague and non-committal answers. This might have been an interesting debate and certainly beneficial. The concept of integrity, a quality that is generally lacking in our world society, is really important to understand for serious and genuine people. And I DO regard MA people as such. But to take you up on your listed points: Point 1. - I agree! Point 2. - Doing the 'right thing' has nothing to do with morality. Point 3. - Epistomology is not the ultimate authority on 'morality' or what is 'right or wrong' Point 4. - This sounds like a statement of a confused person. And briefly on your definition of 'EVIL' being the opposite of 'GOOD': That definition is inadequate as you now first have to define 'GOOD' before you can assess the value of it's opposite. So! .... the discussion can only continue and bear fruit if you are prepared to base your statement on real observations. I would certainly be interested to hear your true views and thoughts. And it would be nice to hear those of some of the other members also. regards
