Integrity in Ninjutsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Dec 28, 2015.

  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    We aren't talking about dance, we are talking about arts that up until a generation ago, no Westerner practiced. You don't hire a sensei, nor do you get to choose. The arts choose, the sensei takes a deshi, not the other way around. People may not like this, but that's the way it has always been, why would one assume it would change to meet our modern sensibilities and desires? I should also add that it isn't the organisation that matters, it is the tradition and transmission. The arts can survive without the Kans, the opposite is not true.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    You can say that the paradigm should be this way, but judo has adopted another and is doing just fine. Comparatively, ninjutsu seems like it's in shambles. We can blame students who are morally bankrupt as much as you like, but there will always be people who are willing to accept something for nothing. If authorities within a system continue to reward those people, well, what do you expect?
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I expect that the Bujinkan won't be around much longer after Hatsumi sensei retires. However, the arts have lasted up till Takamatsu sensei without it, so why they shouldn't going forward is beyond me. I'm not saying things should be one way or another, just pointing out the reality of the situation. Judo is a modern sport, not a traditional koryu art. It has made its own compromises and has evolved from what it used to be. Hard to compare the two.

    Ninjutsu is hardly in shambles. In fact, the Xkans might have been an ingenious way to deal with the fact that you mention. There will always be those looking to take advantage of the system. Much better that the system be able to accommodate this fact of life with it affecting the arts, than the arts be dependent on said pretenders to the throne.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
  4. blindside

    blindside Valued Member

    So the deshi are training for free?
     
  5. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Your actual traditionally trained, verifiably lineaged, koryu seem to be surviving pretty well without a complicated smokescreen of over-ranked fat dudes who can't fight protecting their indescribable secrets. Everyone involved has to work a day job, though.
     
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Some are doing well and some aren't. Generally speaking I suppose they are doing ok but the increased exposure of recent years will bring its own problems.
     
  7. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I might be wrong in part or in whole but it seems like Hatsumi has two concerns:

    1) preserving and passing on the ryuha
    2) making money

    The Buj serves the second.

    Bottom line Hatsumi doesn't care about your training or you. He will happily leave you to it.

    Cultural differences around the awarding of grade and the abuse of this system aside I think that's the long and short of it.
     
  8. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    So the Booj is doing well, making increasing numbers of people incapable and unknowing of the art. This is a good thing?
    The art is more watered down than ever, so that the real masters of the art are hidden in the quagmire. That IS very Ninja I will give it that.
    In the end when Hatsumi Sensei is no longer head of the system, you will likely have a million people claiming some form of crown. This is also good for the future of the art? You compared a sport with a koryu. Should the Koryu be even more attuned to it being fine pointed? Tighter lineage and more discipline.

    1st and foremost Hatsumi is a businessman. True he doesn't care about your training or what happens to 80% of the organization as long as his chosen few are good. Mind you so many call themselves his chosen few. Likely another of the ploys set into play on purpose.

    Does this make sense? That this is a good model for anything>? Even business.
    He is making money. He does have people that follow blindly and does hold the monopoly on the word. It is just a shame that so many people propelled into uber dan grades, all seem to not have a clue according to everyone else. Mind no one is willing to put their money where their mouth is. They state that video training is not good (which I agree) yet we judge based on video and not willing to be tactile with it.

    Bunch of thoughts there. I apologise I am not articulate.
     
  9. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Yeah I don't it. I can't stand the Buj and wouldn't go anywhere near it. Sure the takamatsuden have value but having tried both genbukan and the bujinkan I can't say ninpo, super formal japanese training or Taijutsu appeal to me at all. The org is a disaster for the student but I'm sure it serves hatsumi eccellentlybas an income.
     
  10. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Somehow all threads lead to grades....

    In my view the majority of people are sincerely trying to understand the art and make it work for them. Broadly speaking the people who are doing ok are simply following the stages of development that Soke went through. Nothing more, nothing less

    Unfortunately there are 2 issues with this, and they are both created by people who want to make names for themselves:

    1 If you want to make a name for yourself then you have to articulate how you are different from the majority (or at least your peers). The more you do this the more you veer off course and your taijutsu "goes off"

    2 The stages of development aren't easily defined or linear. This is by design and allows for each individual to develop optimally for their own situation. Nothing unique here, it's the same in say BJJ where people develop their own game. This creates a lot of latitude for people who want to make a name for themselves, even if they are on the right track, to dis those around them because they are not adopting the TRUE WAY

    These issues are fun for people to gossip about and the fire is stoked by people who have ambition or ego. So the image of the Buj is defined by different factions slagging each others' taijutsu off, which does the silent majority a gross disservice in my view

    Most of the Japanese masters are not names that many people would know I'd suggest. They don't / didn't seem to have an interest in creating a following or differentiating themselves from each other

    For me integrity is about being honest with what you're doing, but also being balanced with one's assessment of what other people are doing
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
  11. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    I can appreciate that.
    I would figure obviously the majority of people in the Kan, train hard and do well, learn good form.
    There are always those who want to make a benchmark of some sorts. Many that shouldn't. Easy pickins for internet warriors.
    To each his own.
    I went a different path for a number of years it did me well and I met a good many great practitioners. In the end there were things about the art in general and its representation that didn't enamour me so I let it go. I in that time saw as many practitioners of an art, even veterans of that art.. that should have done the same moons ago. But I gather if they got something out of it, all good.

    But good for a debate anyway.
     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    You'd train with Renner after seeing his training "video?" Trust me, he doesn't get better in person. People get torn apart at least from a taijutsu standpoint, because their taijutsu sucks. Nothing personal there. The other issue is how they deal with that fact. From the beginning of my posting on MAP, I've stated unequivocally that in my mind the only way to really master the arts is to apprentice yourself under a Japanese master. That was not with any ulterior motive or appeal to Japanese culture as better, or to be condescending in any way. People read into my admonition whatever they wanted but I was merely stating facts, the way things have always been, the reality of the situation.

    The first rule of martial arts is caveat emptor. The next is personal responsibility and integrity.
     
  13. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    Can appreciate that too.
    No I wouldn't train with Renner. Or most of the ones that post the vids. My sadness is that they received such high grades to start with. That is my position, that I believe the org has to bear some responsibility with that. Especially since it seems to be an epidemic.

    We also agree on the source. I have managed to train with a number of Bujinkan Sensei. Under 2 of them but with a bunch. I have really found one worth his salt. He trained directly with Ishizuka. It showed.
    He doesn't teach anymore sadly as I would actually go back to learn from him despite all the politics.
     
  14. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    I know he doesn't get better. I trained along side him in Atlanta at the Tai Kai.
    To the best of my memory.
     
  15. MaxSmith

    MaxSmith Valued Member

     
  16. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I agree - it would cut out a lot of hot air if folks could just get into the ring and compete, but that's not gonna happen so we have the aforementioned situation to deal with instead
     
  17. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Actually, the training was a lot tougher before the gaijin(chubby Westerners) showed up en masse. One might think it anecdotal to be told so, but it is a simple nut to crack. If you don't think the arts or the masters are up to snuff, you can always approach them and try your luck for yourself. That's the true way to know if there is anything worthwhile in what you're learning. If you are assuming based on internet rumours, videos, and gossip, you aren't really demonstrating integrity either. Only those who have crossed hands with some of the masters know what they can do. Those standing on the sidelines are spectators.
     
  18. PsychoElectric

    PsychoElectric Valued Member

    I was looking through the good and bad ninjutsu videos, and 99% of it looks bad but i've never done it before.
    Just seems like most of it wouldn't work unless you had some actual fighting experience behind you.
     
  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I would say that some of the ryu are definitely much harder to make work effectively than others. Interestingly enough, the basics of our system come from Gyokko ryu, one of the harder schools. So from the outset, it is an uphill struggle. Koto ryu and Kuki/Takagi are much easier in their elementary levels. Thus, if one is learning through the traditional transmission, the harder deeper aspects are there from the beginning, though not necessarily understood as such. If the goal is quick usable skills, then definitely this progression may seem odd. However, each school had its basic way of learning and simplicity builds onto complexity.

    It's definitely not for everyone, but it was never meant to be.
     
  20. PsychoElectric

    PsychoElectric Valued Member

    But why dont they train with a proper punch? Its like they have this weird step through with the punch like its the first attack.
     

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