Instructor credentials

and this:

Junsei Ryu Hoshin Jutsu translates as 'The pure/genuine methods of the art of self defense'. Junsei is an organisation borne out of the necessity for more traditional methodology that is currently and increasingly being missed, and/or ignored by modern Aiki Jutsu systems in the place of grappling

 

and this:

The literal translation of the word ju jutsu means "gentle art". In Japan, Jujutsu can also be used as a broad umbrella term encompasingall japanese martial arts such as Jujutsu, judo, aikido et cetera (inthe same way as the term Gung Fu is used in China to encompass manydifferent schools of martial art). Also it can have a more specificmeaning related to schools that follow the tenets of old schooljujutsu, as opposed to other divergent specializations such as thosedenoted by the 'Aiki', Karate, or kenpo prefixes. The prefix 'ju' injujutsu means softness, suppleness or flexibility. Jujutsu exponentsuse their techniques to react to an opponents attack rather than usingbrute strength in order to overcome the enemy. In that way, a smallerperson may stand a chance of overcoming a larger person by means ofstratagem and effective technique. A bamboo tree has a flexible trunkwhich bends in high winds to avoid being up rooted.

 

and this:

Many other legitimate Nihon jujutsu ryu exist but are notconsidered koryu (ancient traditions). These are called either Gendaijujutsu or modern jujutsu.

Modern jujutsu traditions were founded after or towards theend of the Tokugawa period (1603-1868). During this period more than2000 schools (ryu) of jujutsu existed. Various traditional ryu andryuha that are commonly thought of as koryu jujutsu actually divergedfrom gendai jujutsu. Although modern in formation, gendai jujutsusystems have direct historical links to ancient traditions and arecorrectly referred to as traditional martial systems or ryu. Theircurriculum reflects an obvious bias towards Edo jujutsu systems asopposed to the Sengoku jujutsu systems. The improbability ofconfronting an armor-clad attacker is the reason for this

 

and this:

http://members.aol.com/wjjf523/index2.php

At the WJJF we are totally committed to the art of Ju Jitsu, to its technical development and to teaching it to everyone who is willing to learn. We make no exceptions. From children to teenagers, the elderly and physically disadvantaged . The WJJF opens its doors to all...

At the World Ju Jitsu Federation we know everything there is to know on the subject of Ju Jitsu - from the history, traditions and philosophies of the ancient martial art, to every aspect of its practice.

 

and here:
http://members.aol.com/wjjf523/index2.php

there are posters bearing the title: ancient jujitsu

 

and here:

http://www.ishinryu.com/dojo_honbu.shtml

Our purpose built, traditional Japanese Dojo set within an acre of landscaped gardens, registered with the Japanese Garden Society, offers luxurious facilities for the individual, group or corporate client, with the added opportunity to train to the highest standards under the personal tuition of Kevin Pell Hanshi.

 

and here
http://www.bjjagb.com/index.cfm?page=6

The Origins of Ju-Jitsu

The origin of Ju-Jitsu is not clear, however the first publicly recognized Ju-Jitsu Ryu was formed by Takenouchi Hisamori in 1532 and consisted of techniques using a sword, jo-stick and dagger as well as unarmed techniques. The Takenouchi-Ryu may be regarded as the primal branch for the teaching of arts similar to that of Ju-Jitsu.

Several hundred years later there was a general shift from the weapon forms of fighting to weaponless styles. These weaponless styles were developed from the grappling techniques of the weapon styles and were collectively known as Ju-Jitsu.

Fukuno Schichiroemon of Temba started the Kito-Ryu in the middle of the 17th century. The Kito-Ryu gained great prestige and popularity with its "Art of Throwing" and "Form Practice." In close connection with this branch was the Jikishin-Ryu, whose founder was Terada Kanemon, a contemporary of Fukono. They established two separate systems of Ju-Jitsu. These two systems appear to be the oldest of all the varied systems of Ju-Jitsu.

It has been estimated that over 750 systems of Ju-Jitsu were in existence in Japan from 1603-1868. The branches of Ju-Jitsu grew during the feudal period. The art continued in various provinces in Japan until the later part of the 18th century, when it began to decline with the impending fall of feudalism.

Kano Jigoro opened his first Kodokan dojo in the early 1880's in Tokyo. Kano used his knowledge and experience of Ju-Jitsu to create Judo. During the Kodokan's years, Judo almost completely smothered the prevailing Ju-Jitsu traditions of the area, perhaps due to Judo's success in direct competitions with various Ju-Jitsu forms.

Welcome to the official website of the National Governing Body for Ju-Jitsu in Great Britain.

 

do you need any more?

 

BWAHAHAHAHA check out all the red jackets and belts here:
http://domain1117555.sites.fasthosts.com/Gallery.html

 

Nah, thats probably enough. Yeah, you're right, probably none of those styles have any right or reason to class themselves as "traditional Japanese Ju-Jitsu"

although some of the sites you quoted, including the BJJA GB one, don't make any claims that their style is Traditional Japanese Ju-Jitsu, mearly that "ju-jitsu" is japanese in origin. Which it is.

 

I am going to apologize in advance as this might be slightly inflammatory.

A number of jujutsu schools in the UK are not what they really are. A great number of them teach a mish-mash of karate, judo and aikido, claim an old obscure lineage (and sometimes go to the extents of falsifying grade certificates or teaching scrolls) or ryuha that doesn't exist anymore and have their students just blindly believe it. If you contest it, you're wrong. If you have proof, it's falsified.

False advertising and basically out and out fraud. Trying to claim to be something they're not and charging money for it.

If they had claimed to be a modern form of jujutsu, then I have no beef.

Proper classical/traditional schools of jujutsu have proper documentation and lineage. Now, this is going to conjure up the argument, "What does lineage matter if the techniques aren't effective?"

How about we reverse that argument slghtly by saying, "If the techniques are effective, why try to claim a lineage that plainly isn't yours?"

 

true, and a very relevent point.

But having a section on your website about the origins of Japanese Ju-Jitsu is not the same as claiming to be a traditional style. Is it?

 

It from a consumer standpoint, alludes to it.

 

Really? you think? So a style teaching Modern Ju-Jutsu cannot even mention traditional jujutsu in an Origins section of their website without being frauds??

seems a little over the top to me.

 

Erm, no.

Having a history page illustrating the relations of classical jujutsu to modern jujutsu is absolutely fine and dandy. It all depend on the wording used in that piece of literature.

All too often have I seen history pages with wording that alludes to the teacher/system instructing classical form.

Case in point

Kyushin-ryu is no longer an extant school. One of my seniors, a specialist in researching Kyushu (Fukuoka, Kumamoto, Oita, Kagoshima, Miyazaki, Nagasaki and Saga prefectures) classical bujutsu schools actually met the son of the last Soke of Kyushin-ryu about four years ago. The teachings have not been passed on to the next generation and no other branches of the ryuha have been proven to be extant either.

 

Well the problem is that a lot of these websites don't actually explain where their own system comes from. Notice how they give a huge amount of history about the origins of jujutsu, even detailing schools like Takenouchi-ryu etc., but then fail to provide any information about the origins of the style that they themselves are teaching?

They allow people to make the false link in their minds that the "ju jitsu" that is being offered is linked to the samurai arts that they have just read about.

If they were being honest, these websites would have included just as much detail about their own system's origin and founder as they include about classical ryu-ha from 400 or 500 years ago. But all too often, that section is missing or just glossed over.

 

fair enough, i think both of those are fair criticisms.

 

What is O Goshi ?

What is Tai toshi ?

What are kanetsu waza?

I study in London ....I am Irish ...I have trained in the USA, Ireland , UK, Spain, Gibraltar...

What am I studying ?

If I am learning techniques and terms in Japanese ...am I not learning Japanese Jujitsu ( Jujutsu) ...mmmmm...

Perhaps I have been wrong for the past 20 odd years ...

perhaps my judo Sensei ...oops instructor ....cause he is English and has never been to Japan ...so he cant be teaching me judo ...

My instructor in English throwing and grappling techniques ...thats better !!! perhaps he has been wrong about his training for the past 40 odd years ...


Folks does it matter what colour Belt you wear ?

does it matter what colour Gi ....oops ( uniform ) ..you wear ?

If its tought in Japanese it must have been Japanese at some time ...simple ..


train hard and God will Love you

Dont and God help you ..



Smurf

 

No because the techniques and principles are different, much like judo and BJJ are different even though they share some common points. The little Koryu I have been exposed too doesnt use O Goshi and their use of Tai toshi had different entries, off balencing and a different method of power generation from judo, (which the majority of WJJF is based on)

i think this is also covered well here:
''
http://www.budoseek.net/articles/importance_paper.htm
Jump on any Internet martial arts site, and sooner or later - no, constantly - there will be a debate about the legitimacy of one school or another. Nowhere is this more common than in traditional Japanese martial arts. These debates usually revolve around historical documents needed to substantiate claims of antiquity and authenticity; particularly in systems that are little known, presumed lost, or never before heard of. These discussions concern pretty much the same issues over and over again, which I will discuss here.

I don't care about all this historical legitimacy crap - I just care if it works on the street, on the battlefield, etc.

It's hard to validate the "street cred" of an archaic martial tradition, particularly using weapons are not used in 21st century street fights or battlefields. Even if your prospective teacher did cut the arms off a renegade skate-boarder with his naginata, what does that prove about the validity of the art?

A number of years ago, a Japanese instructor of a grappling/kempo "battlefield" art made an unwise comment in a martial arts magazine. He said something to the effect of, "All American martial arts are weak, because they do not have the power which is created in practicing a true battlefield art, training in blows to defeat an armored enemy." A rather well known group of American-eclectic karateka from Newark, paid him a visit. They honestly wanted to feel what it would be like to be beat up by an armored fighting specialist - and they were also quite willing to experience what it would be like to shut his injudicious mouth for him as well. The Japanese instructor rather ignominiously backed down from the opportunity - claiming to be either misquoted or mistranslated.

Seems like I'm on the side of those who scorn the "paper trail" here. Not really. I simply have scorn for what are called in Japanese "frogs in a well."

A frog in a well looks up at the sky and says, "I know the entire universe. It's a little puddle of water, surrounded by slimy stones, with a blue disc in the middle."

But just as one would expect a man who claims to be almighty to respond in proper fashion to a bunch of tough guys from Newark who simply request that he prove his words, I definitely am in favor of expecting someone who makes claims of a lineage to back up these claims. Why? It's simple - if I am interested in studying an authentic method of pre-modern combatives, the best hope I have of learning something valid is if there is a record - ideally both an authenticated lineage on paper, and a person-to-person connection from one teacher to another, passed down through the generations. Since no one is really testing these methods today, the best hope we have of learning something real is if there is an unbroken chain of transmission back to the period when it was used.

When questioning the lineage of any ryu, I consider the following answers (evasions, really) to be proof that a person is lying.

How dare you ask me that! You are questioning my honor.

That's secret.

The ryu was an "otome ryu" - a secret school of the feudal domain.
NOTE: The otome-ryu were not secret, they were specially designated as official. There would be, in fact, more paper on an otome-ryu than on a run-of-the-mill school!

Some schools, transmitted within a single family do not have much documentation. But they have an oral history and trail of teacher-to-student transmission within the family in place of a paper trail. When you have a school with no documentation, no notation in authoritative texts such as the Bugei Ryu-ha Dai Jiten, and no plausible oral history, you are probably dealing with a fraud.

In addition, ryu with a hodgepodge of weaponry from many nations, or specializing in techniques that do not suit the culture, clothing or armor of the period, or environment of their alleged birth, are also suspect. To be fair, ryu change over time, and a teacher may have added or altered techniques - but such anomalies should always raise questions that one should expect an instructor to be willing to answer.

Most koryu teach ways of killing an enemy. It's obscene to muck about practicing killing without taking it seriously. I expect the same level of honesty from a teacher as I would from someone who wants to marry my daughter. In the latter case, even if a young man claims to come from a good family, have a good job, and he promises to treat my daughter with love and respect, I am not willing to take his word. I want to meet his family, have some evidence of his work and see how he really treats my girl. If I am not able to have some of that information, I expect a clear answer why - without defensive belligerence.

In short, if I want a chance to study something "real" in the area of Japanese martial traditions, the teacher should have either valid historical documentation and records, or a clear explanation why he doesn't.

These guys are paper tigers - what would they do in the Octagon?

I believe this question is not totally out of line - although I think even an untrained 70-year-old grandmother with a katana would make Tito Ortiz nervous in the ring. First of all, the claim that koryu never had free-style practice is not true. There are many records of jujutsu schools practicing randori in-house or between schools. Essentially, Jigoro Kano formalized competition rules so that various schools could compete in relatively safety. Initially, it must have been quite exciting to view a match between Takenouchi-ryu, Yoshin-ryu, and Kiraku-ryu - all those different approaches on one mat! After a point, however, judo and its rules "took over" as a kind of homogenized system. This same thing has happened in the so-called No Holds Barred world. A decade ago, the excitement was seeing somebody from Brazilian Jujutsu fight a sambo player or a kick boxer - now, as Frank Shamrock said, "There are no secrets." Everybody trains pretty much the same way.

Thus, in the early decades of the 20TH century, a Japanese martial artist's name-card might read, X-ryu menkyo kaiden, Kodokan judo 4th dan. The Kodokan rank was, in a sense, certification that he'd been tested in free-style competition, and was not merely a master of kata practiced in the safe confines of his own dojo.

I believe that WWII is one of the major reasons that we so rarely see such Japanese jujutsu instructors today - the jujutsu schools were relatively small, and many of their top people were killed in the war or abandoned practice upon their return.

This, plus the ever-increasing trend towards sportive Budo, led to judo achieving almost complete primacy over the traditional ryu.

There was also some level of "sparring" in weapons arts - either in controlled fashion with wooden weapons, free-style in many ryu with shinai (bamboo practice swords) and body armor, or through taryu shiai (fights between men of various schools - anything from official matches before feudal officials, vendettas, dojo breaking, to street fights). It's a fair assumption that the vast majority of koryu practitioners today are not nearly of the level of many of those from generations past - because many of the latter had either fought or sparred, or at least were training with the intensity which comes when you really are preparing for such an event.

Even today, some koryu teachers are incredible, but many of them have skills that are a mere shadow of those of generations past. But even in the latter case, if a martial tradition has maintained an authentic compendium of kata and technique, one has a living tradition that can be revivified by one's own intensity and will.

On the other hand, made-up schools, either created by people honest enough to say so, or those who hide behind a fake history, are little more than the Japanese or pseudo-Japanese equivalent of Society for Creative Anachronism players. (And far less fun to hang out with too. A lot of the SCA guys at least know how to party - but their made-up-Japanese counterparts tend to be stiff, pompous rabbits, who hide behind rigid, pseudo-ritualistic etiquette. Funny, most of the koryu teachers I've known would be formal when it was necessary, but were great to spend time with in relaxed circumstances).

Some of you modern guys - (by the way, don't exclude me! - I have as much time in various modern systems as I do in koryu) - may still find the obsession with history to be overdone. Maybe so - but if I falsely claim Rickson Gracie as my grappling teacher, or Master Chai Sirsute as my muay thai instructor - someone, maybe the master himself, is going to want to pay me a visit. Why? Because when such men teach, they give the knowledge they bled for, and they will not appreciate a fraud scamming their glory. Even if I made the false claim and you paid me a visit, rolled with me, and found I'm really quite good, wouldn't you wonder why I'd be so insecure as to lie and use someone else's name for backup? Why not stand on my own merits? In other words, a liar with an arm lock and a good low kick is still a sleazebag.

Over the years, I've had lots of teachers. And some of them weren't exactly people you'd bring home to mom - some were outlaws, some were wildmen. But all of them, upright citizen or outlaw, were stand-up men and women, and all of them could be trusted. I knew who they were, and from whom and where they came. All martial arts revolve around questions of life-and-death, and this includes a life-worth-living, and a death-worth-dying-for. Liars don't figure into that equation for me - except as people to avoid.

A "combat-tested" knifer who claims he served in 'Nam with the Navy Seals but was really a stateside cook; a guy who asserts he learned silat from a tribe in the wilds of Sumatra when he never left Vermont; a "street fighter" who had three schoolyard scuffles in junior high; or a guy who claims his ryu is sworn to secrecy because a Chinese Taoist taught the Japanese master and made him swear not to write it down are all the same - pathetic, morally weak, lying poseurs.

And it doesn't matter if they can kick your ass because it's not about the paper. It's about being a man or woman of integrity. It's about being a person of one's word. Without that, a teacher has nothing - absolutely nothing - that can't be acquired elsewhere and far better.

Ellis Amdur is a licensed instructor of the Araki-ryu and the Toda-ha Buko-ryu. He has trained in other martial systems for over 35 years, including judo, muay thai and aikido, as well as Gao Yi Sheng lineage Xingyi and Bagua. He has written two books, Dueling with Osensei: Grappling with the Myth of the Warrior Sage, and Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions (see media reviews section of the forum). Amdur's company, Edgework, provides training for law enforcement, businesses, and social services on verbal de-escalation of mentally ill and aggressive individuals (www.ellisamdur.com) ''

 

Good post.