Americanization Salam kembali, Mas Tristan... About being Americanised...I never meant the movement, not even the tempo. Rather I think that the verbal sound effects are American...you go Bang! Bam! and so on, while in Indonesia the verbal sound effects are more along the lines of Bet! Set! Dhep! Dhes! Also the photo pose like the 'I Want YOU for the US Army' posters, with your index finger pointing out towards the camera. Salam hormat to all, Kiai Carita
This illustrates my point Don't get me wrong, I'm not commenting on right or wrong here. Just that the reasons for the shift in meaning are pretty obvious. So the whole 'Guru' arguement could go around in circles ad infinitum(it seems like it has already). At least now everyone seems to respectfully agreeing to disagree You got me there! Aside from jumping squirrel, I don't know any 'street' meaning or maki maki of this Was just using the example to show how easily things can get confused. Oh and while I'm here, I think many of you might find this of interest. http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/browse/view/adt-MU20040210.100853 Selamat malam GS
Great link to Ian Wilson's silat PhD thesis, thank you Gajah! Bajing lompat (jumping squirrel) also means highway robbers who specialize in robbing a truck from it's load by jumping on to moving vehicles and unloading them while to their accomplices on the ground. salam hormat everyone, Kiai Carita
Well this seems to be an old thread but I just found it and noticed my name mentioned a few times. I have been away from the silat scene for awhile, the BS that has went on around the VDT academy the way senior students were treated being thrown out for various BS made up reasons and then suddenly they were never taught the real Serak all of this left a real bad taste in my mouth it is a total shame to see all of these fine dedicated hard training loyal students bashed by their teacher and fellow students , I don't even know why I was put on the black list and really didn't care at that point i had seen and heard enough allthough it could have been my lack of participation at the time but an abdominable hernia, broken fourth metatarsle do tend slow you down for a bit. I am sure the story is I was never taught anything of value after the Five or Six years I spent with them and I was probably never promoted but oh well. I could coment on just about every post on this thread with about as much first hand knowlage as anyone in the VDT academy but I won't at this time maybe i will post on each One at a latter date or if anyone wishes to e-mail I would be glade to answer any questions on the subject that I have first hand knowlage of. I do have on video Guru Bob vaneta being promoted to Maha Guru and being named lineage holder to inherate the system and Pak Vic looked right into the camera and said no one could take that away but I guess things change when you make up the rules as you go along.
Frankly, I dont see nor have seen anyone from the Pak Vik line Move like PDT or anyone from the PDT line.....Pak Vic's Silat Looks like Aikidosilat :woo: BASE ANGLE LEVERAGE is a Guru STevan Plinck way of expressing things....(although if you ask Cass Magda he will tell you he came up with that). Why guru dan inosanto supports pak vic??? Not sure...but if you watch closely Guru Dan's Silat is more "PDT" than Pak Vic and he moves better than those from the Vik line. Maybe Guru Dan thought he would get something out of Pak Vic that he didn't get from "PDT"? I can't speak for Guru Dan . All i know is his Silat is very good and it doesn't look like PAK VIC. Any silat is better than no silat but if you want Serak.... Go see Stevan Plink or Cliff Stewart. infact even Guru Cliff would tell you Guru Stevan is "IT" when it comes to Serak. Contact Guru Cliff Stewart he has a video tape where Pendekar Paul Dethaours names Stevan Plinck his succesor and the next "Pendekar of Serak" and its in front of Pak Vic. Maybe this video never happened in Pak Vic's mind....I saw the tape multiples Times at Guru Cliff's House its real... I am sure Guru Cliff would be willing to share that with anyone that contacts him. Peace Santiago Dobles
Guru Plinck has very wisely stayed out of the lineage wars and other Silat mishegas. He stays in the upper left corner of the country and teaches out of garages, welding shops, wherever he doesn't have to pay extra for space. And he's always said "Who cares about titles? I have my Art." or "When I was a kid I wanted to be the best Silat player in the world. Now I want to be the best Silat player I can be." What more could you ask for?
Salam all, You got that right Todd, " what more you could ask for?" When lineage, tittles, and ranks are kept in the closet, and the only thing left is practice what your teacher preach and teach, you trully will understand what your teacher teach you, may be not now, but eventually you will discover the "light bulb" moment. As I had said over and over again, understanding the silat historical background, understanding the movements/techiques WITHOUT ability to perform is like having powder lemonade WITHOUT water. So we must walk to walk and talk to talk.... I knew Stevan, with all my heart I can vouch for him, he is an excellent silat player and a good human being. What more you could ask for? Peace, Tristan
Hi Mike, great to hear from you. Yeah, I committed hari-kari by refusing to renounce my friendship with Guru Bob, Ron Miller, Jerry McCleary and Chris Geilen (the day Chris left). As if all those years together on the floor and socially could be erased - not. In fact, there's a little reunion photo of us from our August Reno gathering (6th photo down). Thankfully now I practice American Dutch-Indo Fu (TM), so I don't have to hear some key"bored" martial artist who has never seen me invoke that same old tired crap to wax generalities about my movement. I wonder if he's ever even seen anyone in that picture move? We'll all be together again in February, practicing aikdo silat, moving all stiff and upright. Should be fun and it will be great to see you again.
I' sorry for insulting you. I mean no disrepsect I just call it how I see it. Yes you are right i never saw YOU move or anyone on that list. however I did SEE Pak Vic and students of his on tapes "Blitizing hands and Tongkat tapes". And I have students that before studying with me did the "serak" long distance Pak Vic happy meal service which truthfully only made them get "Bad habits" and Bad structural integrity. Maybe Pak Vic is justing "hiding" the art like he "hides" his fist in that silly fighting stance you see all over his website. And maybe he is using a smoke screen to hide the "Secret Serak Buah" by using "aikido" like techniques in His SAMBUTS (which ofcourse look nothing like Pendekar Paul Dethaours Serak Sambuts and Bukti sambuts for that matter). However Pak vic claims they are "Serak" sambuts . Maybe so...I dont know I am not in anyway a master of this stuff. All I know is my teachers, and People who I have trained with and also experiences which have led me to find out what works in the real world and not just in the "dojo". I have also seen and own a extensive "SERAK" library of footageplenty of videos of sera, "Serak" , from various sources (Most of my Videos are of Pak Vic, Maurice, Pendekar Paul, Rudy Terlinden, Cass Magda , Guru Plinck, Guru Cliff , anakserak, Wali Songo, ). I have watched and analyzed them all to see the common thread some have it some don't... And from the look of it all ..if you can make PAK vic's stuff work for you in a fight and in the real world than I take my hat off to you......In the mean time I will stick with PDT, Guru Cliff & Guru Plinck. There is enough video out there to show where stuff was "influence" from and how things have developed. And also how in some cases things have "Digressed". No offense to you all. I mean none. This should be a place to be able to say what we feel about arts and also maybe help others to go even further in the martial art world. If you would like post some footage of how you MOVE go for it. Peace Santiago Dobles
Better When I Move I've never said that Pak Vic's people didn't have any moves -- nor would I say that. Some of them certainly do. I have said that Pak Vic's contention (parroted sometimes loudly by his seniors until they either got booted or left on their own) that the VDT branch of Sera(k) was a) more complete and b) superior to the other branches -- such as the one I'm in -- was, in my opinion, not so. Having crossed hands in training with some of Pak Vic's seniors, I can see that they indeed have skills. Thus far, though, and even as old and slow and junior a status as I have, none of them have shown me anything for which I didn't have an answer. (Or that my teacher didn't have nine different answers he could use every day of the week and twice that many on Sunday.) As far as I have been able to determine, Pak Vic and Guru Plinck had the same primary teacher in Silat Sera(k), though each had some other influences. What they did with their training certainly seems to be different, and while their students might feel what they know is superior, thinking it is different than saying it, and both are different than proving it ... I personally have taken to calling the art I'm learning Pukulan Pentjak Silat Sera Plinck, to make the point that it isn't Victor-style or Paul-style, or Maurice-style and certainly not Willem-style.
My comments were not attributed to anything you said about movement, etc. I thought my "Aikido Silat" reference made it clear who/what I was addressing. I find it odd that someone who hasn't posted here since January would jump on here now to make his little contribution at Mike Choate's expense, when all Mike was trying to do was clarify things as they related to the usage of his name here. As for VDT seniors parroting loudly, I know them all, they've all been to my school in the past 18 months, almost all are currently active and on good terms with Guru Plinck. So I don't know what to say about your post, other than you've been beating that drum for quite a while, and this time, with no provocation on anyone's part. Bob, Ron, Chris, Jerry, Alan, Guy, me, and now my former training partner and peer Mike Choate have been broadly and negatively characterized by someone who has never met us or seen us move. And he came from nowhere and used Mike's post as an opportunity to take his little shot. Like the guy who registered here back in March solely to snipe at me from anonymity. None of us have spoken with Guru Victor in 2 years. I know you're fond of saying that you have boundless supplies of ink as far as these internet discussions go, so have at it. But also remember that you are the first one to get irritated when someone holds out the olive branch to you and insults you and your training partners at the same time. Why should I react any differently?
This site has been hard for me to get into for some reason, and I am just now reading your post. I agree that it is a place to say what we feel about the arts, but yelling "fire" in the theater isn't usually appropriate unless there is a fire. You fanned the fire of an almost-extinguished thread on the heels of someone who had nothing to say on the topic of whose art is superior, etc., and decided that we should all value your contribution to the thread. I didn't value it. Your post and posts like it are what perpetuates the animosities between the lines. Pretty soon we're not going to be able to blame the de Thouars brothers for it any more. Then it will be on guys like you. I might voice an opinion that Berklee-trained guitarists suck at progressive metal, and that if you wanted to learn the REAL thing you should go to Musician's Institue in L.A. It's just an opinion, right? I'm sure you would be big enough not to take offense, especially if I'd never heard you play. Right? Sure.
Well that is true I have been absent from this board for many reasons one being related to work with berklee trained crappy progressive music recording ...(Although Berklee is not much to esteem about.......But Steve Vai & Jon Petrucci went to berklee they seemed to do OK for themselves in the prog world..I don't know of any proggers that made it from MI with the exception of Paul Gilbert...) . The other is lack of time and Family needing attention. I dont really look at the dates when posting or reading these threads. That is sort of irrelevent to me. I just read what interests me when I have time and I make a post if I feel like it. You don't have to value it at all. I am just putting in my 2 cents. You may not agree with what I have to share or say. I having studied Serak, Sera, or whatever you want to call it and having also completed my Sera training with my teacher I should be able to look at something and or read something and be able to make an opinion on it if I feel like it. Unfortunately everyone who has studied Serak in the USA has had to deal with some sort of dishonesty or mystery at somepoint about what they are being taught and or what they are doing whether its the PDT line, or the Pak Vic line or whatever. I am sorry I just still dont get it why people are training with Pak Vic & why Dan Inosanto is still backing him up. Maybe I am missing something? Please explain to me what it is. As I mentioned before after having seen videos of all the brothers (dethaours), and various teachers of silat and also training with different "Serak" teachers I have made up my own mind as to what works for me. And as I have said before if it works for you in a fight I take my hat off to you in honour. And I mean that. Its like guitar....Look at what Django did with 2 fingers....not choice way to play but he made it work. If you can do that with Pak Vic's Silat and fight with that "hiding the fist behind the Palm" stance than everything is Gravy. Again sorry for offending anyone. I really wish all silat players the best regardless of what line you come from. In the end it doesn't matter. Peace Santiago Dobles
I understand why people are vocal and proactive in rendering their opinions about Guru Victor (notice I don't use the title "Pak" - that is a term of affection). It's just that in this case, if you haven't read through the whole thread, his current students got raked over the coals, and some people continue to take pot shots at his former students. I don't know to what end that they persist in doing this. I too have lots of Serak videos and have trained with Guru Cliff and the old Bukti "board", Dr. Andre, Guru Plinck, etc. And I have around here somewhere the couple of minutes of you guys doing techniques and such - not the YouTube one, a longer one. So I too know how to watch a video. As for who chooses to train with who, I try and not hypothesize about all that in a public forum because invariably I'd end up insulting someone. And who knows what that could eventually lead to. Probably a martial arts contest. Anyhow, I see that you didn't mean to insult me or any of us specifically, just generally . So for now, I'll leave you to get back to those modified Jason Becker-inspired 3-octave triads....
Guru Mike, its great to be back and I look forward to Febuary i was allways impressed with Guru Plinck, i had doubts long before I was officially removed and is why I was distancing myself and did't show up to many events twards the end but the removal of the people listed above and hearing Victor telling students not to assciate with them was enough Nobody will tell me whom I can associate with and expect me to comply, if the person who said something about Vics old students bashing Guru Plinck in the past would go back and do some research he would find that I certainly never posted a bad word against Guru Plinck or anyone else for that matter even though the preasure was put on me to do so.
Indeed..I wasn't directly trying to insult you nor anyone for that matter if I did I apologize I tend to not have filters and get very passionate when it comes to Serak & Silat....So I apologize. In the end if what you know can be made to work than its good silat. I have seen people studying with what I consider good silat teachers and still can't make it work it really comes down to the individual's ability to train,process and apply what he or she learns. Now I will say this if you find yourself with a good teacher then stick with it. Anyone good will work to make you better and will teach you to surpass them. As Guru Cliff says "a little silat goes a long way" I am off to rehearsals. Peace Santiago
Thanks Mike! Guru Plinck is awesome, and I can't imagine that I said anything bad about him, but I have a friend checking the archives from Victor's private board. Yes, there was pressure - BIG TIME for me, as you might imagine - but I don't remember saying anything. If I did, I apologize in advance, and Stevan has certainly long since forgiven me. It's too bad in a way, because as I review all the Bukti djurus and sambuts, Guru Cliff's LA Silat djurus, Guru Victor's Serak djurus, the Tongkat djurus, Dr. Andre's Terlinden djurus, Guru Plinck's djurus, etc., it's obvious that we're all connected. I'm far more interested in what we have in common than in what separates us. Of course, I have no stake in having the "real thing" in terms of my martial arts career goals. Maybe others do. For me, if my career is limited only to the relationships I currently have, then that's more than enough for me. I'm very lucky to count you guys as my friends and training partners, and even luckier to have my students to stimulate my examination of this great art we do, by whatever name.
Guru Mike , No I don't recall you ever saying anything but good things about Guru Plinck. I was refering to another post by someone else who was commenting about Victor's seniors bashing Guru Plinck and his students not having the real thing ( whatever that is ) I really don't care either and personally don't think anyone has the complete "real thing" or maybe they all do, just different interpretations . If it works, has the essence and you believe in what you are doing, then that's what really counts. At this point in the game, there is no way to be sure with 100% certainty.
You Sir, are the embodiment of that viewpoint. I need to find someone else to train with you because I don't know if I can take much more of your "philosophy"!
Clarification Point taken. My reaction was, in part, fueled by re-reading the earlier posts to this thread, which ran contrary to what I knew to be true. It is an old sore spot, I overreacted, and should clarify that not all of Victor's seniors were "parroting loudly" his claims. An unfortunate choice of words on my part, mea culpa, and I hereby apologize to those so offhandedly lumped together. Mike Roberto's exchanges with me have always been more reasoned than not, and that I chose to use his post as the launching point for my own was not the wisest decision, so a personal apology to Guru Roberto, as well. My opinion of what constitutes Silat Sera(k) is what it is, and I stand by that, but it was not my intent to cast aspersions on Guru Roberto, who is long divorced from the VDT group and teaching on his own.
