In an odd way, this reminds me of the time I have spent in CMA. My background has mainly been in the the Chinese Internal Arts of Taijiquan, Xingyiquan & Baguazhang. Some years ago, I became aware of an internal arts teacher in a neighboring city by the name of John Painter. Anyone reading this who has a background somewhat similar to mine may know the name & may also know him to be a controversial figure in the realm of Chinese internal methods. Much of the internet chatter that I happened upon regarding Shirfu Painter centered upon arguments such as, "he made up his lineage", "can't prove what he says about his teacher", "he's not teaching authentic internal arts", "i caught him in a lie once,"---blah, blah, blah. Ad infinitum, ad nauseum. I grew curious about Shirfu Painter's training methods after seeing him post in a forum. With much skepticism (stemming from all that I had been exposed to), I e-mailed him with a barrage of questions. The response I received was frank, courteous and open--answering my several questions & inviting me to come meet him at his Kwoon. Intrigued, I accepted his invitation & made the 1-hr drive to his school the following Saturday. When I arrived, a Xingyi class was just starting. For an hour I observed the class--then observed the following "basic self-defense" class infused with Bagua, Xingyi, Taiji techniques & principles for another hour. What I found were classes that stressed the understanding & application of principles that were rigorously drilled into the students. I saw repetition of a few techniques clearly explained and demonstrated. And (horrors!) I saw these drills being performed on less than compliant opponents using sucker-punches, roundhouse punches etc. The result? I signed up for a couple of his classes & never regretted doing so. I stopped going only because my work schedule made a 2-hr commute next to impossible. He never proved his lineage, system lineage, etc to me nor did he need to. The efficacy of the system spoke for itself. Give me something that I can use to protect myself & others that may be with me from a real, savage, violent attack & I will gladly train in it leaving the politics, history & lineage questions to the lineage queens who would rather wage internet fast-typing kung-fu battles than put in serious training.
I like your thoughts on training marcusknight. I'm more of an FMA guy, but I'm developing an interst in Silat too. Hey, by reading your posts I think we might be near the same area. Could you either PM with the info on the Serak school that you found or post it here? I'd like to see if its something I can check out. Ashton
Ashton, I am in the far north Denton, Tx area. None of these schools are "in my neighborhood" but I'm more than willing to do a little driving for good training. The link for the Serak school is the following: http://www.crowsmartialarts.com/curriculum.php I don't know too much about this school or the instructor, yet. It appears that he is a long-time student of Dan Inosanto and teaches several arts, but is very excited about the Serak in particular. Maybe some others on this board that might be more fmailar with this school or instructor can give you (and me) some feedback. Hope this is of help. Marcus
I read the article. Cool! The article mentions the Serak Museum. How is the museum coming? It is probably ready for for visitors by now. An update would be great.
Wrangling Selamat, All -- The wrangling in Silat Sera(k) branches has gone on for a long time, and I'm not here to fan those flames. Well, not much. I did write a letter to the editor of Inside Kung Fu after I read the April '06 article by one of Pak Vic's, students to point out what I saw as an error. There is no record anywhere that Bapak Sera ever used the terms "base, angle, and leverage." Very little about Bapak Sera can be verified, including where he was from, when he was born, and which foot was clubbed. Yep, people have written things about him, but most of it is conjecture. Some of it is flat-out made up. The concept of "base, angle, and leverage" as such is Maha Guru Stevan Plinck's. Before he started using it, there is no record of anybody else in any other branch of Sera(k) having done so. The first recorded mention of it is in a video Guru Plinck did for Paladin press. The first written instance of it was in the Tom Clancy novel Net Force, and I know because I put in there. That was nine years ago and nobody has produced any earlier in-print mention of the concept. That's because they can't. Several of Pak Vic's former gurus, when queried about it, either had no idea of what I was talking about at all, or got it wrong. I don't mind that other people borrow the terminology, nor does Guru Plinck, but we would like to see credit given where it is due.
Here We Go Again ... Selamat, Guru Astle -- Perhaps this is the case these days; however, it wasn't always so, and Pak Vic isn't the only person who keeps excellent records. I have emails from him going back almost ten years, along with postings on various webpages, interviews in magazines, and if he has mellowed in his old age, he certainly spent his share of time bashing others along the way. And yeah, I've talked to him, too. We stopped talking when he told me I was destroying the art of Silat Sera(k) if I didn't wear a sarong to class, and that those of us in Stevan Plinck's lineage were essentially practicing silat-lite, because Maha Guru Plinck hadn't learned the real stuff as Pak Victor himself had. I found this odd, since they both had the same primary teacher. And more oddly, when some of the booted-out senior gurus from Pak Vic's tjabang dropped round our workouts, they didn't have anything we didn't have. Not to mention that this teacher-come-lately-stuff contradicts earlier statements out there in print. I've also talked to Pendekar Paul, though not since he became ill, and corresponded with a host of other seniors in various Sera lineages, and according to them, and what I personally know, there is much in Pak Vic's history of the art that is revisionist. Things that none of them (or us) ever heard of until recently. Anybody ever find a mention of Pak Vic's original art and teacher in silat in Java earlier than, say, five or six years ago? None of his gurus or fellow students under Pendekar Paul have heard about such. His older brother Willem, living there at the time, laughed at the idea. Pak Vic has contradicted himself in print many times. I have some great examples about who the pendekar is or isn't, who is qualified to teach the art and who isn't, and a bunch of others. This is why he gets flak -- if you say one thing on Monday, then do a one-eighty on Tuesday, you can understand how there might be a problem with perception. When somebody puts something out there for the world to see, it can come back to bite 'em. If you are going to champion someone, best you know what you are getting into.
Despite all it is a very effective Style. All I Know is that it work in the street or anywhere. I highly recommend training With Victor de Thouars or any of the de Thouars. Oh Yeah! Willem has been learning since he was 6 years-old. My teacher's teacher trained with him(not under him) when Willem was in his 30's. Good old-fashion training! Beat the crap out of each other.
Steve, Obviously I am not as well connected as you are and I do not go back with Pak Vic too many years. What I can do is report out of my own experience with him and other people in organization/lineage. Again, Pak Vic has been nothing but decent, fair and friendly to me and many others in his aliran. I have enjoyed and benefited greatly from what he has taught me. I learned vastly more about Serak from him than I ever expected to. Pak Vic has gone, time and time again, the extra mile for his students. He has done much for us, his students, he did not have to. In fact, he has agreed to come up to see me and my students this Spring, when he is extremely busy. I am not new to martial arts. (See www.ewmaa.com for my past lineage, under "Curriculum", I believe.) I possess a good BS detector when it comes to martial arts. And I can say with certainty that Mas Roen Serak is not BS. The Mas Roen phases I am learning now are excellent, and in many ways provide advantages over the superb Mas Djut phases. Strange if the man did not exist, that would make Pak Vic a genius. Ask the folks at the Santa Cruz Silat collective, Roberto, Choate, Gielen, they all got to Phase 6,7,8 with Pak Vic, they will confirm it. Unless they are unwilling to give an unbiased assessment of the Mas Roen material! Which brings me to another interesting item: Pentjak Silat Soempat. This was the creation of Pak Tisari Mardjoeki, Pak Vic's childhood Serak teacher. (Perhaps Willem remembers Dhaka Mardjoeki, Pak Tisari's son). This an amazing weapon art. It has its own jurus, Pantjar, sambuts, etc. Sifu Ray Crow, who has a website, has gotten fairly far into it, would be a good source to ask about Soempat. But if Pak Tisari never did Serak, then what? This excellent art is yet another creation of Pak Vic's? Guru Tim Lucas, who teaches in Erie, PA, has been with Pak Vic since the 80's. Guru Dan Inosanto trained with Pak Vic's older brother for 13 years then left to train with Pak Vic. Surely someone of Guru Dan's genius would of quit the VDT by now if something were truly amiss. Guru Horacio, Pak Vic's lineage holder, is now studying Phase 9 and 10, why hasn't he discovered that Pak Vic's curriculum is a bunch of baloney yet? And I could list many more great martial artists that have progressed far with Pak Vic. I only wish to present the positives of Pak Vic amidst all the bashing others are doing on this forum. Obviously, I can not speak for Pak Vic or others who have been in the art for a very long time. But I can talk about what he has been like since I started with him. The "four seasons" are a yearly cyclical training methodology not some mystical woo-woo (thanks Todd for that!) or astrology. Enough with the thinly veiled bashing disguised as speculation. PG Andrew
I do not comment on the specifics of what I have been shown in any art the name of which I cannot utter(TM). I have studied Martial Arts with all 3 U.S.A. deThouars brothers, Guru Bob Vanatta, Dr. Andre, and Guru Stevan Plinck. I also -solely and exclusively- trained a student to Guru Muda ranking in the VDT system a couple of years ago, buoyed by the patience and grace of his classmates. I read on this thread that he is now your "Senior" in that system. Good fit for all concerned. At our school we practice Dutch-Indo Fu(TM), and have great relations with the senior students from every line that we care about. So again, (and on a more positive note, as you suggest) how's that Serak(TM) museum coming along? Must be ready for visitors by now....
*Sigh* That article is a year old- Dave Cater apologised for taking so long. Plus he (D.Cater) edited it. As for the museum, well, not there yet, that's true. I think I know who you are, sir, we have spoken on another forum awhile ago. Sarcasm- doesn't it avoid the real issues? I met that Guru Muda at the ROF last year, and excellent Serak player, he taught me much in that time I spent with him and Guru Tim Lucas after hours.
Just out of curiosity, who are you? I know most of Guru Plinck's students here and elsewhere. As far as I know there aren't any in Santa Cruz. Rennie came up to Vancouver once, but that was about a decade ago.
It doesn't intend to avoid the "real issues" as you call them. The sarcasm is directed at the stupid notion that what one names as the system they practice is the be-all and end-all of what they have, or what it's worth. What, in your mind are, "the real issues"? What I have read thus far has only to do with the naming conventions for the information, and that those naming conventions may be nothing more - and therefore are suspect, because if they don't illuminate the art/system, then it begs the question- why are they there, especially when they didn't exist 5 years ago? THAT's the "real issue" on this thread as I read it, since you asked. I've only responded because you suggested that folks from my generation might lend credence and authenticity to your naming/lineage convention, by validating the information we received as attached to those names. I refuse to comment on the specifics of what I learned, and I do not call it Serak(TM). That is not a naming convention that I am "allowed" to use. Why on Earth would I invoke "Rhoen", or "Djoet", or any of those descriptors in discussing my brand of Dutch-Indo Fu? As far as I have read, there are no other "issues" brought forth here. I do not claim any lineage as relates to what you study or promote, so do not invoke your terms and lingo on whatever you may have HEARD that I have or have not learned (since we have never met). I do not believe that Guru Vanatta, Chris Geilen, Ron Miller, Jerry McCleary, or Mike Choate (46 years' of VDT student history) are interested in supporting your point of view either. You are on your own here, with the full support of my former student (glad he shows well) and the other "seniors" that you cite here. For the record, Guru Bob Vanatta is my direct senior, and Guru Plinck is his direct senior. I am available to answer any questions dating back to 1997, and Guru Bob has told me that he is available to answer any questions dating back to 1982 (he obtained his Black Belt in Tongkat in 1986, which he wore in the Asian Expo video of that same year, which also included Guru Plinck as Guru Paul's top student).
Serakmurid, It occurred to me that you may be feeling ganged up on on this thread, and I'd like to suggest a different motivation behind the posts here that are at odds with yours. I think there is a way in which you can support your teacher and tjabang brothers, and not leave yourself open to what you perceive, and in a couple of cases, IS "bashing". When you spout a party line with the detail that you have here and are not personally aware of the 360 degree history of your group, I think Steve is suggesting that you can either tone it down somewhat, or at least check into things a bit. He is saying this for 2 reasons which occur to me. One, some Guru Plinck students (especially the ones that follow and participate on the various internet forums) have put up with a lot of undeserved ridicule by your teacher, from long before you showed up on the scene, and they're sore. Others too. So they are likely to take it out on you. But two, the last 20 year history has shown that the odds are that some day you will find yourself in a world that largely - if not universally - rejects the dogma that you are putting out there, and that you personally will have credibility problems in the post-Serak(TM) world. As a consequence, you just won't have as much FUN as your hard work might otherwise have entitled you to. I suggest that you can be loyal to your teacher and tjabang, and even help promote them, without necessarily exposing yourself too much with all the lineage lingo. This lineage lingo has been woven into your understanding of the movement, which understandably makes it difficult for you to talk about without heading down the slippery slope. And unfortunately the more heavily lineage-lingo-laden the articles become, the harder it is for you to promote while avoiding the credibility gap in which many believe you will find yourself. So for me personally, I'm just trying to help you out a bit here, from experience, and also not be drawn into defending the point of view that you've put out here. We do Dutch-Indo Fu, and want to support and promote good martial artists whose knowledge is available without strings attached. All this, "He's my teacher, not your teacher", "This guy's in, this guy's out", "You can't use that word, we used it first", "All hail Euclid!" ( I laughed my ass off on that one Bobbe) stuff is so tired. Fewer and fewer people are going to care as time goes by. Why make yourself a target over it....
I'll probably regret this... Glad you liked it, Tuankaki! I try to make my points relevant to real-world situations. Serakmurid, I have avoided posting anything on Pak Vic since I left his organization. Anything I say will come across as hostile, as would most of the words of former Serakkies. I assume that the private Serak forum is still up? I know what is said there, and I know how easy it is to join in the crowd without investigating your motives. Believe me, some of my closest friends in Silat today are people I bashed on the Serak forum, and there are some VERY hard lessons learned from those times. I have nothing to gain by tearing down Pak Vic, and although I know who you are I don't bear any ill feelings toward you. I have my own identity somewhere else, and the current affairs of the Serak org. don't interest me, even for petty bashing. But I DO have firsthand eyewitness experience, especially with the last group that was evicted. And I remember Horacio, he & I trained together at a private session that I paid Pak Vic for. And I am in touch with/friends with most of the former students (there are some I don’t care for, so I don’t bother trying to connect with them) and we were all there together. Steve Perry writes very knowledgably about the things visiting Serak students have said to & about his teacher. I was in the room when Victor said these things to the students (and myself), as well as countless others. So when I choose to speak about it, you should choose to listen. You are being hit from several sides at once, and it seems confusing to you that so many people have it out for your teacher and your style. The people on this forum aren't "out to get you", but you are dealing with the law of probability: Victor has "cleaned house" (for whatever reason) about twice every year and a half for, what, 10-15 years now? There's nobody around from even MY time, and I wasn't that long ago!! This fact, coupled with the fact that the online Silat world is very small indeed will almost guarantee that you will run into not one but SEVERAL former students. And let's be honest here, Victor has never really said "Well done, thou good and faithful murid" to anyone who left his system, now has he? Lotta hurt feelings out there, and many of these people have said the same thing you are saying now. They see the words that they themselves spoke, and it grates on them, because they remember what they were thinking & doing when they said it. I appreciate your trying to bring order out of chaos, Serakmurid. You still have pride in your art & your teacher and it shows in your posts. But, to quote the bible, be sure that your sins will find you out. Not that I am religious, but I mean that in the context of “The past will bite you dead on the ass”. You are becoming the focal point of people who were wronged by Victor because you are waving a flag for him publicly. Kicking students out of his school is the very LEAST that Pak Vic has done to others. I mentioned Steve Perry’s point earlier, the things that were said both to the face of & behind the back of Mande Muda students have cultivated a multi national feeling of animosity toward your teacher. I could mention Sanders, and start another ****storm. I could say “Ron Miller” and we could have a barrage between us. I could list names like Bob Vanetta & Chris Gielen, or titles like Maha Guru Muda or “Library of Serak”, and see who pops out of the woodwork. But I say these things so that YOU understand why repercussions happen when you post things like what a great style you train, how cool Pak Vic is & how the structures of the system are like manna from heaven. Remember who you are speaking to. Don’t assume that there is any sense of “Keluarga”, there isn’t. Victor has strewn ill feelings and sentiment all over the world for the past 20-30 years. Many are already shaking their heads as they read your words, thinking; “It’s only a matter of time”. And they have every reason to do so. On another private forum I belong to, one poster mentioned that they wished the DeThouars had at least a passing interest in the damage they were doing to the Silat world & murids. This is probably both the most truthful and generous statement that could be made about ANY of the brothers at this point. Blunt can come across or degenerate into sarcasm easily. Serakmurid, I sincerely hope that you succeed in your style. There is nothing wrong with it. You personally are a better man than most who were under Victor and posted to public forums, myself included. But I hope that we don’t see you in another year or so, posting about feeling betrayed, scammed & ripped off. But you wouldn’t be the first, or even the 30th, if you did.
Question from Tellner earlier: Todd, that's Andrew Astle, out of NY. He was coming up back when I was in the Serak organization, looks like he's made some headway.
Selamat, I haven't posted anything on this forum for awhile now, and I'm pretty sure that I should not now as I'm uncertain whether I can do any good. When I first registered here it must have been during some sort of rare lull in the aggression and vitriol spitting because I thought I had found a resource where ideas were being freely shared and discussed about pentjak silat and (at that time) seemed to be free of the overt badmouthing, in-fighting and hearsay propagation that our family of arts have become so infamous for. It didn't take long for me to find out that I was wrong, and so even though I would occassionally pop back to see what was going on in here I did not wish to add any potential kindling to the flames by posting anything. However, I feel an obligation to post and at least weather a bit of the aggression Mas Andrew has opened himself up to and been solely shouldering simply by sharing information I'm sure he thought this group might actually be interested in. Well, it seems that practitioners and students all styles and schools of pentjak silat are welcome to promote their art.. with the exception of Pak Vic's. This whole thread started out as Mas Andrew merely trying to inform everyone that there was a silat oriented article in a major publication that he thought might interest this group (and yes, I'm sure there was a small amount of pride behind his motivation that said article featured the group he was a part of but who among us would not be guilty of the same thing) for this he was almost immediately slammed, challenged and accused of proliferating lies. Simply for mentioning the article. The initial attack snowballed and pretty much became a beat-down with many participants and only one defender. Such is the way of the internet and I am not naive about such things. I realize everyone wants to have their feeling heard, but to force a person into the postition of defending the actions of others and then bring folks out of the woodwork to press the attack and pick apart everything that you forced him to declare just seems a bit cheap. Mr. Astle did not write this article and it is unfair to try to hold him accountable for anything said in it. If you really feel the need to vent than might I suggest you privately take it to the source. There is no air to be cleared here. If you feel the need to question or inform Mr. Astle or anyone here regarding the private affairs of their organizations, in the future might I suggest private messengering them instead of hijacking a thread to publically challenging or patronizingly educate them. This stuff might make good soap operas, but its lousy martial arts. Its obvious to everyone that Maha Guru Victor is a controversial figure in pentjak silat circles as are most of his brothers, but whatever your personal feelings about him or any of the brothers are it cannot be denied that they have done tremendous service to promote the Indonesian martial arts in America and even if you have negative thoughts about what they may or may not have done, the arts they teach are rock solid so to imply that there is no value to what can be learned from Pak Vic would be quite incorrect. RAMANA1, forgive me since I am not able to tell who you are so I am forced to make assumptions, but its obvious that you or someone close to you has a personal agenda at stake here. Might I suggest that there are subtler ways of getting your points across that might not come across as so personally biased (and i know that its a cheap-shot on my part, for which I really do sincerely apologize, but you might want to look up the definition of the word 'finite' and edit your post accordingly.) If the affront was suffered by you than I sympathize with you but humbly suggest that it might be better to learn from your experiences and move beyond whatever happened. Aggressively trolling on internet forums cannot be as cathartic as you hope it will. If the bad experience was suffered instead by someone close to you than I would ask you to not perpetuate negative hearsay, (just as you are attacking Mas Andrew for your perception that he is perpetuating hearsay to further some sort of personal agenda on his part. Although, some might merely call that "marketing") there is far too much of this going on in our art and pentjak silat in general. Surely this is only having a negative effect on our community. Just because someone is not choosing to voluntarily air dirty laundry in public doesn't necessarily mean he is covering it up. Perhaps he simply does not wish to comment on subjects that he does not have first-hand knowledge of. Forcing him to attempt to do so and then attacking him for it is bad form in any game. TuanKaki, it is evident that you wish to maintain your anonymity so I will respect that sir, but may I say that it is nice to see you make a rare appearance to this forum. I feel that the organization lost a great source of knowldge and a lot of its personality when you left Guru and I wish you the best in your present and future endeavors. I wish that the circumstances of your postings were more positive as I always enjoy hearing your take on things. the same sentiment I extend to you Mr. Perry, I always find your posts informative and insightful whatever the topic may be. I have stated repeatedly in my posts that I do my best to stay out of the "politics" our art is infamous for and bear no ill-will towards any other individuals or organizations. I recognize that odds are anything I hear from someone is only one side of any story and, as such, choose not to repeat it, especially publicly. I sincerely hope that this post is not taken as an attack at anything other than the petty squabblings and innuendo that incessantly permeate Indonesian martial arts in the west which I feel are the main culprit in our continued division. As I have previously stated, I truly hope for a day where we can all find a venue to set aside past differences and freely share ideas. I felt there was the potential to take babysteps towards that day in this forum, but I can tell that its not ready to start that path. I feel that there is a tremendous amount that I could learn from everyone on this forum, and I hope to someday but until we get to that point I'm going to have to continue to limit my participation here. I just don't have the energy to constantly rail against actions that continue to sabotage that hope. I'm not hypersensitive to differences of opinion and can usually learn a lot from a good debate. (for instance I think its unfortunate that a lot of Kiai Carita's threads became about perceived personal attacks as I thought many of them started out with many good points beings shared) However, threads like this one just border on bullying. I hope some sense can be made from this stream of conciousness rant and that it is taken in the spirit it is intended. (and all typos are forgiven as well) Best wishes to you all.
Petty Bickering However, threads like this one just border on bullying. With all due respect, my intent was not bullying at all, but education. I spoke to the IKF article because I have specific knowledge that part of that article was in error. If the words "base, angle, and leverage" ever came out of Bapak Sera's mouth, nobody on this planet has any evidence to back that up. I can show where I first heard them. More, when the cheerleading for Pak Vick started, I felt the need to point out that the error I saw was but one of several, and a pattern of such over the years. Did anybody hear me say that Pak Vic's art was no good? Nope. Never said that. That he had no skill, he hadn't turned out any good students? You didn't hear that, either. Did you hear me say that there appear to be a lot of contradictions in what he says about the art, its history, and who is qualified to teach it? Oh, yeah, I said that. And any place you can point out where I was wrong, I'll happily apologize for it. Guru Astle doesn't know this stuff, and he certainly isn't going to find it out from active members of Pak Vic's tjabang. There are other sides to the story. So I was telling him to check around before he said things about which he didn't have enough knowledge. If you are going to be defender of the faith, you need to know it well enough to counter attacks on it. If can't stand the heat, then you should stay out of the kitchen. The genesis of this for me began when Pak Vic and his then-senior gurus began bad-mouthing my instructor. Until that point, I had let a lot of stuff slide, but in his attempt to move from Paul's shadow, Pak Vic stepped over the line. My teacher just shrugs it off. But I can be irritated for him, and I was and am. If I shoot my mouth off and what I say is wrong, I should not be surprised if somebody who knows better calls me on it. That's how it works. Show me where I got it wrong, I'll bow and offer my apologies. We're not talking innuendo here, but words from Pak Vic's mouth to my ear, or into public print, be it books, magazines, webpages or whatever. If you are going to claim that the moon is made of green cheese, best come back from your trip there with a nice hunk of it to show me. There is nothing I've said in this thread that I can't back up with evidence, and anybody who wants it has but to ask. Others who have spoken up also have first-hand experience from which they can offer their views. What you'd dismiss as petty bickering isn't so petty for number of people who put a lot of time and energy into an art, only to be summarily tossed out for what certainly doesn't seem to be sufficent reason. If Pak Vic didn't want this kind of scenery, then he shouldn't have started down this road. And if people want to stand up and talk about what a hale fellow-well-met that he is, certainly they can. But not everybody is of that belief, and disagreement is, after all, what makes a horse race, isn't it?
Thank you for the kind words. I take it from your post, that you were not among the 4 or 5 revisionists engaged in the smear campaign which ensued upon my departure. As for my "anonymity" such that it is, I thought I made it pretty easy to find out who I am, for anyone interested enough to click the mouse once or twice. That said, "who I am" pales in comparison to who (and what) I am promoting, which is the main reason I am on this forum as of late. Hormat rolls uphill, as I think you have demonstrated. I'm now focused on a positive vision for a post (TM) world in the family of arts we do. There is lots of garbage to take out, but I prefer to leave that to those with that motivation. I just want to move forward. Thanks again for the kind nod.
