Independents

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kobudo, Jul 14, 2011.

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  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Oh really? Did his students go through the same process he did to "get it?" Up to a certain point the teacher is the most important element, but at another point the student is. You are the one being narrow minded because you don't know apparently anything much about ninjutsu or the Xkans(not a putdown, just you don't know the situation).

    I am discussing things based on the REALITY of the situation, not theory. So if you think that there is this wealth of foreigners who get it, why don't you give us their names?
     
  2. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member



    It make sense and thank you very much.
    But the chances of me doing it are remote.I only learned to "copy and paste" last week:)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2011
  3. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    Anyone got any information regarding my original question????

    Regards

    R
     
  4. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Err, that you and Martin Faulks play in his dad's yard at night while wearing Underoos?:cool:


     
  5. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    That would be yet another Kuden then?? ha,ha,

    Regards

    R
     
  6. george rodger

    george rodger Valued Member

    RP,If its not people's intention to"get it"in the way you want to"get it"why come to Japan to "get it"

    Example,Geoff Thompson "has it"
     
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Don't get all excited George :banana:, he wasn't referring to you! He was speaking in the theoretical.

    The foreigner who got it the best was Doron, and we know his training was with the shihan and Hatsumi sensei back in the day before the boom.
     
  8. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Sure, I could see that many people have it from their art's standpoint and their personal expression. However, that isn't ninjutsu. There are a few people who have gotten the "it" of the Xkans or other traditional arts too. It is harder to get it due to the depth of the arts and the training progression that one needs to go through under a qualified teacher(before you say it-with other aspects of development as well, including mixing it up and pressure testing to mention 2).

    If your intention wasn't to "get" the art in the first place, why did you take it up? Since you didn't get the art, you seem a bit upset.
     
  9. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean by your phrasing there. Yes, "Ninjutsu" is absolutely a Japanese word, or more precisely, it is a Japanese term to describe or represent a Japanese concept, I'm not sure what you mean by "legitimate word", though.

    George, in a very real way, when you learn a martial art, you learn that martial art. Learning to fight may or may not actually even be a part of it, and what RP is discussing is the concept of learning the Japanese martial art refered to as Ninjutsu (as a convenient term, frankly), so examples such as Geoff Thompson are irrelevant, unless you are saying that he "got it" in terms of the Bujinkan arts? You seem unable to differentiate between your personal values and the realities of what a martial art is, and teaches. And you're not alone in that, even in this thread.
     
  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Absolute poppycock. The art has nothing to do with it. You guys are not as unique as you think when it comes to that lame excuse of foreigners don't get it clap trap.

    Fighting is fighting regardless of whether you hide in bushes or not (joke by the way).

    You train hard with a knowledgable instructor you get it. You don't you don't its that simple.

    Every art has a weakness and a strength it's the practioner regardless of where they come from who has the ability to strengthen those weaknesses.

    For instance. Show me your weapons skills and I can easily find a weakness if I so desired. And it's not because I have better genetics. It because I know my weapons.

    As a matter of fact show me you system and I can find fault with it if I so desired in the same way a good fighter from any art will have the ability to find weakness with mine or anyone elses.

    So I understand more than you realise. Fighting and hurting people has nothing to do with which country style or system it comes from it's what we humans are best at and those who practice hard enough have the ability to be good at any art and get it.
     
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Sorry, Pat, but "fighting is fighting" is really missing the point entirely. The discussion that RP is having is that there aren't many who have gained real understanding of the specific arts in question, not that there aren't many who can fight. In that regard, being able to fight doesn't really count as an argument.

    I'll put it this way.... If someone comes along to your Rapid Arnis school, and have some solid experience and skill with, say, Chinese Whip, will you award them a high grade in your school, as "fighting is fighting"? No, they haven't learnt your system, regardless of whether or not they can fight, or apply what they have previously trained in.
     
  12. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I don't want to send this thread in a different direction, but I do like this approach.
    I train with you because you have something about you, an energy, an understanding, whatever it may be. But I can still see where the weakness lies in your art (and mine).
    Spotting this weakness (or having it pointed out) allows me to keep learning and searching.
     
  13. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Point also totally accepted.
     
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Still waiting for names. I get your point really, but your belief and the reality of ninjutsu is are two different matters. I'd say having a system made up of 9 arts with the depth and breadth in the Xkans is pretty unique.

    You still never answered the question about whether just training in any old thing hard would work in your mind?

    Is it just train hard for you? Or does smart come up anywhere in your paradigm?

    Nobody here is arguing that you don't have to train hard or be dedicated. Or that one race or country has a monopoly on fighting. I don't get why you can't seem to understand that.


     
  15. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Can one of you guys answer a quick question, as I do not have an understanding of Ninjutsu?

    Do you consider it a complete art, once understood at a complete and deep level, or do you still feel the need to cross train?
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Oh boy. Well, that's not so easy to answer, frankly. In my definition, all martial arts are "complete" due to the fact that they are complete bodies of knowledge (expressed through combative techniques representing the guiding philosophy, or fundamental values and beliefs of that system), whether or not it covers each and every area of combative possibilities. If your definition is more along the lines of covering each and every area, there is no system that does that, as many are mutually exclusive and deeply contradictory.

    In terms of needing to cross train, it comes down to your personal values, journey, and desires out of your particular martial journey. If your aim is to achieve the greatest understanding and skill in Ninjutsu, then other training in other systems won't add much to that, frankly, besides possibly giving a slightly different way to approach the art itself. On the other hand, we insist that our seniors train in MMA, BJJ, Boxing, or similar, to gain a greater understanding of other training methods, amongst other reasons.

    So, yes, it is complete, and cross training is up to the individual. Does that help?
     
  17. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Yes, it is a complete art but how could you know that if you had never cross trained? Unless you are just relying on what you were told? However, any technique/strategy, etc can be countered, so just becuas it is a complete art doesn't mean that it is infallible. Perhaps part of the reason for its depth.

     
  18. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Thank you for the replies.
     
  19. Sandstorm:RS

    Sandstorm:RS Valued Member

    That's all I needed to know Chris, as lets face it, all Japanese terminology which is translated into English is phonetically spelt eg Jutsu/Juts/jitsu etc.

    As mentioned, I don't speak Japanese and so I can only rely on explanations and examples from people that do.

    Regards

    R
     
  20. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I think comprehensive might be a better word to use rather than complete.
     
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