Independents

I started learning from an independent training group under a guy who seems to be between dojos. He had left the Bujinkan because he didn't want to deal with a particular dojo, and set up his own training group for the past two years, but has recently found another Bujinkan dojo, and it seems like he's getting back into it.

I say "it seems," because I can't speak for him. It's just something that he's doing a lot and talking about lately.

The art is still the same taijutsu that is practised by the Bujinkan, and it's not acknowledged to be anything else.

 

Well that is all a bit vague really to be much help.Can you elaborate ?

 

I basically started training with his group rather than the Bujinkan because I liked the way he trained, compared to the Bujinkan dojo's style of training.

I don't really know what else I can say to answer the OP, to be honest.

Some people may practice with "indies" because it seems to be better than the dojos around.
This isn't always the case, and in more cases than not, the Bujinkan dojo is the better bet for people willing to train in the art. In my situation, I am looking into other dojos, but there's no harm in training "indie" if you're still learning what is taught at the Bujinkan, right?

 

It depends how far you want to go? If you are okay knowing that your instructor has cut himself off from further instruction and correction then more power to you.

 

Benkyoka,

I don't believe that's the case. He has been frequenting another Bujinkan dojo lately, so it seems that he's continuing his education in the art.

 

It depends.

I have one student who went with Toshindo for a long time. He has some pretty hard habits that run counter to what I am trying to show him and he is having trouble trying to get rid of them. It seems to have held him back compared with the folks that didn't do much except for Bujinkan and he frequently beats himself up over his slow progress now.

 

When I started practicing under a shodan who was only exposed to one dojo, I didn't know much at all about the art. Later, I found out that the dojo he learned from was a Van Donk school, and then was later changed to Legare.

I understand that there are bad habits that are picked up from training with certain schools, but I'm definitely not against going out and seeing what other teachers are doing, and trying to correct any bad habits I may have picked up over the last year or so.

 

So he's not really an independent then, is he? Which kind of makes your question, which I quoted and answered, irrelative to your situation, don't you think?

 

For the time he wasn't a part of the Bujinkan, he could've been called independent. Now, he isn't really independent, so you're absolutely right.

 

The key thing seems to be that (based on what you say) he took every chance to expand his experience and knowledge rather than say he knew all he needed to. He did not seem to just do token seminars, but is now going to a real dojo on a regular basis. If another school like the Jinenkan or Genbukan were available, he would not make excuses but instead go to them if he did not like the Bujinkan teachers in the area or the organization as a whole.

Compared with folks that give excuses as to how lax the Bujinkan grading standard is, but some of us know they spent 6 years in the Genbukan without putting in the real effort so that they could show even a certificate for shodan (first level black belt) what you say really does not make folks like me class him in the same light as many "indies" like the guy in my city.

I can well imagine someone not liking a particular Bujinkan dojo and not training with them. But your case seems to be different in that he made efforts to find better instruction instead of excuses. When it came along, he took it instead of just playing the role of teacher for his ego's sake.

(And I do mean for ego's sake. When I first started dealing with people who lie about ninjutsu on the internet I quickly determined that most of them are in it for the ego because they really don't have too good a life to point to. A few have tried to say they were not pathetic losers in real life, but it always seems that way under close examination. Of course, those loser types always try to point to their lack of taking in money to try to cover themselves and paint it in that framework. So if you look into your teacher and find something else in his life he can much more pride in than teaching, it might be one of the best guides that he is not lying to you.)

 

Absolutely. My instructor doesn't pride himself on being a teacher. He instead focuses on being a student.

If he wasn't a student, I don't think he would make up his own style and pad his resume. He's a family man, so he couldn't care less about what people are impressed by in first glance.

 

Bujingodai posted

Love to Dave, but I think what ever we discuss will just devolve into a "Your teaching incorrectly" thread so might as well close it.

Anyway PMed you

 

I really wish it had gone that way. I gather there are more of us. And frankly why I had not posted about it either as it would devolve into an opportunity to be scrutinized which.....was not the point of the OP as far as it was stated........even after I stated in a post that it would do this.

I may post my story for what it is worth shortly. I have work, however I need to adjust my sig line again as Don came up with another.

 

I would like to explore the point Mattt brought up. The bujinkan is full of independent behaving types already. For those who were in the Bujinkan and then left what was the real difference? Was it a statement or did something really change in training?

 

tsukaneru Posted

This is a very good question.

There is no doubt many Bujinkan people that have attended some seminars and/or gone to Japan and received high grades for a short visit. Now whether this is right or not is the subject for another thread, but we all know it happens.

For someone who wants to be the Bujinkan Independant type as Matt stated this is a big plus. It means you can teach what you want, how you want, and promote what you do on the back of the grade you hold, even though you may not have much knowledge or experience in the art.

Indeed one could argue that it would be easier, and more profitable being an independant Bujinkan type, and just attending a couple of seminars each year to give the impression to your students that you are still training and making sure you are still in the loop so to speak. For all intense and purposes for me this would be an easier route than what I am doing now, for not only would I be able to promote myself on the back of the Bujinkan, Hatsumi and my grade, but also be able to make profit through the sales of merchandise etc.

In 2005 I had a decision to make. I had some money in my pocket for the first time in years and I could have flown to Japan after making the necesary arrangement and turned up at the Hombu Dojo and have added on my resume of course that I had visited Japan and trained there.

Instead I didn't. I chose to fly to the states and train with Mr Stephen K Hayes. Why did i do this?

Because (And I know people are going to attack me on this) I was after quality instruction. I knew that SKH was not going to offer me a black belt on a simple visit, and I also knew that it was going to be hard training, but thats where I went.

In fact it took me another 3 years to achieve shodan under Hayes.

Now people could argue that the reason I went to the states was to bring Hayes to the UK to make money, which is a fair point. But what I will say to any of these people is that if you think I made any money out of those seminars you would be wrong. In fact the only things I did get from those seminars was equipment for the club, (Kabuto fron Nine circles etc) all the rest was paid out in flights, hotel fees, venue fees, and Mr Hayes fees.

So would it have been easier for me to have gone to Japan and got a grade and now be a Bujinkan independant? Yes.

Is it easier and more profitable doing what I am doing now? No.

So the reason I chose to be independant is that I didnt want connections with an organisation (Bujinkan) known for bad quality martial arts.

And whilst I know that sounds like a dig at Bujinkan members and the bujinkan as a whole, I absolutely accept that there are many very good Bujinkan practitioners, unfortunately the few have spoilt it for the rest, and its these few that have become the most vocal and the most recognised.

In fact for this to be realised you only have to read back a few pages on this forum.

Maybe if the bujinkan had had the same quality control as the Genbukan we wouldn't see this lack of quality control, but then I guess we wouldn't see so many people over 5th dan either.

But for me it was about having the courage of my conviction. Sure I could have taken the easy route, find a teacher, go to Japan, get a grade, teach on the back of the Bujinkan and make money.

But I guess the path I am taking is slightly different. Its a shame that some people can't see that some of the independants are following their own path, and are not in it for the ego or the money (I wish), but simply running a small group where people train together to learn from each other.

 

I don't have a problem with you standing up for your decisions, I'm just saying that if you'd known where to look, you got have gone to Japan, had harder training, and not have had to receive any rank whatsoever.

 

so you ditched the genbukan and jinenkan for training with SKH?

 

Your excuses laid out in this post sound well practiced. However...

Yes, you are following your own path. One that leads you further and further from the reality of the Takamatsuden. Congratulations!

 

It's a shame but I think the reality of the Takamatsuden is being clouded by it's own practitioners, there are a decent lot. But when there is no issue with gets what rank as a whole and so on. The problem exists initially from within.
Just an opinion.

 

What? Could you reword that?