In their prime? Ali vs Tyson.

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by Combat Sports, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm not a sport fan, but this "phantom punch" piqued my interest.

    Looks like a totally legit and well-targetted KO to me:

    [ame=""]Muhammad Ali knockout Sonny Liston in Slow Motion HD - YouTube[/ame]

    I think sometimes people forget how hard boxers can hit, even if it doesn't look like a huge effort. I was guilty of that before I did any training, thinking that body shots during a clinch didn't look like they'd hurt. I know better now :)

    edit: how come embedding isn't working for me all of a sudden? :(
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The one that knocks you out is the one you don't see!


    well usually anyway.....

  3. Rhythmkiller

    Rhythmkiller Animo Non Astutia

    Lol i never heard that one. Incredible bit of business.

  4. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

  5. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Tyson was not Tyson by the Douglas fight. He was out of shape, flabby (relative for him) and his trainer was totally unprepared - didn't even have an enswell to reduce the swelling under Mike's eye. They'd taken Douglas ( and Tyson's own apathy) far too lightly.

    We're talking Primetime Mike and Ali, here! People can change radically from one era to another.

    Thing with Ali is he was banned from boxing during a time when many considered it would have been his prime.
  6. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    And mine's a complete utter tart but its fun to debate anyway ;)
  7. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I don't like the "Tyson was out of shape" or this or that excuses. The simple fact is he lost the fight. He got KO'd. Being ill prepared is a lack of professionalism which Tyson seemed to suffer from most of his career, but not an excuse. He still got beaten by the better man, if he felt otherwise, he should have pushed as hard as possible for a rematch.
  8. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    No excuses, now! None!

    I agree on the gist of what you're saying overall - Ali, the superior boxer in most respects.
  9. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    I think Ali would have won but remember Ali had problems with left hooks and bob and weave fighters. Fraziers left hook was probably as good as Tyson's and he gave Ali all sorts of problems. Also Frazier won the title when there were a lot of quality heavyweights at the time. Besides Frazier and Ali you had Irish Jerry Quary, Ron Lyle, Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers, George Foreman and Jimmy Young.

    My problem with Joe Louis is that he would have been on the light side for a HW in the 60's and 70's. Heck, an in shape Ali was weighing in the upper 220s in his prime. I think Louis at his heaviest was just over 200. Yeah he knocked out some big guys but I wouldn't call Buddy Baer and Primo top fighters.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  10. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Don't know what to make of

    But apparently, the erudite world of fine-arts also asks themselves what would have happened had Ali and Tyson met in the ring.

    There was a recent Stage play off-Broadway, Lower Manhattan entitled "Tyson vs Ali" that had a fairly sizable budget and received a bit of press.

    Doesn't look as if they attempt the answers through analysis of pugilistic science, Boxing Kinesiology or the like... the fight scenes were done by a ballet choreographer, if I understand correctly.
  11. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I'll give you that, but being out of shape out of laziness and being out of prime and by that time taken a lot of beatings IMO is a different thing, still doesn't change the fact that he did also beat Spinks even if he lost to him as well.
  12. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter


    The lack of professionalism in most of Tyson's career - Tyson's "career" was a career that never was.

    If one looks at his early, early days, you see a greatly different fighter than what he became later - he had the stamina to last the duration, he had the ability to change levels, to slip, to b&w...after he got rid of his old trainers, then things started to slip with him...he became a single-dimensioned head-hunter with no real gameplan.

    He needed a hard-nosed trainer to give his natural aggression and power a chance to mature under much needed discipline.

    After the penitentiary stint, it was already a career that "could have been".
  13. Rhythmkiller

    Rhythmkiller Animo Non Astutia

    Right on the money.

  14. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Part of this is true. I have to bring up one thing though, as you mention Tyson's earlier days when he was more multi-dimensional he had been into boxing for a long time by then, don't you think that he had the boxing IQ at that point to understand when things weren't going his way to change it up? It's not like you forget things such as what has been ingrained in you for years and years. Floyd Jr. comes to mind. His Uncle and now Father both train him, but Floyd could train himself if he had to and I think most boxers could tbh if it really came down to it. It doesn't take a genius IMO to say "hey, I'm getting hit with this same punch over and over, what can I change"?
  15. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Point being is that a multi-dimensional fighter doesn't just become a one dimensional one... not IMO of course.

    Ali still puts a serious beating on him, prime for prime.
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The problem was he kept winning - the lack of guidance or correction of the small things at these stages means there was no reflection or adaptation of what to improve.

    Plan A: Knock them Out......there was no Plan B

    Lewis had the same problem when he was with Pepe Correra. "Knock him out champ" was about the extent of his fight planning.

    Tyson getting rid of Atlas - or more accurately D'Amato getting rid of Atlas - was the worst thing to happen, because Teddy was a master tactician and strategist (look at how he won the title for Moorer by firing him up)

    It is very hard to see the flaws in one's own performance, and often even if you can you don't always know how best to fix them
  17. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I guess Mike shouldn't have tried to screw around with Teddy's niece then lol. He almost became the youngest dead HW champ
  18. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    The rest I will give you for that. Mike did have skill, but his skill looked much more impressive in his training videos then in his actual fights. That's not to say he was some sort of poor fighter by any means, but as I said before, when the going got tough for Mike is when he slowed down even more.

Share This Page