In the practice of ninjutsu - cross train IN other arts, or AGAINST other arts?

After some people suggested ninjutsu practitioners to "take up judô" (in another thread) I got curious and wondered what opinions people have on this board.

First of all, to avoid confusion, the definition for the term ninjutsu that I am using here is the one used by Hatsumi sensei, Takamatsu sensei and several of the japanese shihan. I.e. the Takamatsu-den martial art of the ninja.

In this case, I am discussing serious practitioners who are practicing the art daily, both the armed and unarmed aspects. They should already have a pretty firm grasp of the basics of kamae, tsuki, uke and keri from Gyokko Ryû and Kotô Ryû.

Should such a practitioner seek out other martial arts to cross-train in (like jûdô, MMA, kendô, thai boxing, kickboxing, wing chun, etc.), and learn and study and practice those techniques alongside their ninjutsu practice, or should they strive to practice with/against these martial arts - not for training their techniques but rather for being able to apply the ninjutsu fighting movements against them?

For me, the answer is most definitely the latter, but it would make an interesting discussion to hear different views.

Let's keep it all in the spirit of good debate

 

Cross training, the better you understand, the better you can fight. Besides, you may pick up something in another art that you wouldn't in Ninjutsu.

 

In, not against.

The other arts compete against each other already, by training the latter as you suggest you are not allowing yourself the chance to see what they have and you lack.

Capacity is key, a person is capable of speaking any of a plethora of languages, but most speak only one. The human body is capable of movement as dictated by the laws of physics, and should not be limited by the laws of a ryu ha.

 

I'd go for against, not in (sorry Mattt)

I think it's a case of definitions...but I would go for both.

Learn their way

Train against

But not try to patch gaps with things from another art.

 

It's not quite the same, in my opinion (and I speak six or seven languages - depending on how you count, my german is very rusty ). You CAN fight a kickboxer with ninjutsu, but you cannot speak japanese with a german (who doesn't speak japanese, of course).

Why put in time to learn to fight a kickboxer with kickboxing, instead of learning to apply ninjutsu against a kickboxer?

And a question which I should have put in the original post - how can you master (in lieu of a better term) ninjutsu without learning how to use it against other styles?

 

Also,

Then why learn a ryû-ha in the first place? Why not train in MMA or Jeet Kune Do for instance?

 

IMHO:

I think the arts that Takamatsu passed on contain plenty without bolting on any Frankenstein odds and ends from other arts.

Test against them though. Definitely.

 

Swap ryu ha and mma/jkd in that sentence and it is the same thing.

Learn everything.

 

I might be a bit off today, but I don't quite understand what you are saying

Gyokko Ryû, for example, is not the same as Jeet Kune Do. There are many similarities in philosophy and strategy, but it's not the same. Otherwise it would look and act the same. Just like Wing Chun is not the same as Thai Boxing.

"Learn everything" is great, especially if you can put in 24/7 of your time to practice deeply. But otherwise, I don't think anyone here at this forum is at such a level of mastery in Gyokko ryû and the other eight ryûha that he can learn other styles to the same level of proficiency.

Or is it a "jack of all trades, master of none" situation you are recommending?

 

im sorry to say but the title of this thread is very reminiscent of certain groups of wing chun practionners who believe that training in "anti-grappling", without having a good pedigree in grappling first, will actually work on someone proficient at grappling.

crosstraining is never an against other arts principle, its to train in them to understand them.

simply put, how do you expect to train specifically ninjutsu against someone from a good muay thai background unless you have good understanding and proficiency of muay thai yourself.

 

I personally said its a good experience training with judoka in randori. As your understanding of timing, distancing and balance in the context of being in contact with someone will improve.

 

This is going to be pretty Bujinkan biased but I think its quite valid for Genbukan and Jinenkan-followers as well.

Lets take a look at which aspects are available in the Bujinkan:

-Strikes with the fists: Very many different ways of using the hands to attack. Not only closed fists but pretty much every part of the hand and every direction. Also strikes with the fore arm and the elbow are included. Striking distance cover from long reaching attacks to short ones.

-Strikes with the legs: Many different ways of kicking with different parts of the foot. Also using the shin and the knee. Also jumping kicks and double kicks. Including kicks from the ground and kicking at opponents on the ground.

-Control holds: Many ways of grabbing onto an opponent. With one hand or both hands. From all directions. Standing and on the ground.

Locks: too many to count ways of locking/breaking different parts of the body. A lot of locks for controlling an opponent on the ground.

Chokes: all kinds of chokes, not only against the neck but also the arms, legs and the torso. Using your arms or legs. From all directions. Standing and on the ground.

Throws: A lot of different ways of throwing an opponent. With one hand or both. From all directions.

Counter attacks: many ways of countering an incoming attack, be it strike or kick. With hands or feet.

Escapes: Very many methods of escaping control holds/chokes/locks.

Conditioning: Ways of conditioning parts of the body to handle impact. Mostly hands and feet.

Break falling: very many ways of escaping/surviving throws. Getting back up on your feet if you trip/fall.

Moving through terrain: Ways to jump in all directions, move through terrain, run up walls, trees, acrobatics.

Weapons: Shuriken. Ways of throwing objects at opponents
Weapons: spears, halberd, long staff. Ways to use long weapons
Weapons: sword, quarter staff, short staff. Ways of using weapons on semi short distance
Weapons: short sword, short stick, jutte, tessen, knife: ways of using short range weapons.
Weapons: hidden. Ways of hiding and using hidden weapons on short range.
Weapons: rope and chain. Ways of using linked weapons on short and semi-long range.

Apart from above you have ideas on nutrition, stretching, strengthening the body and the like.
I didnt mention the more esoteric and obscure practises of the ninja (like how to disguise yourself, how to mentally prepare yourself, climbing, poisions, silent walking and so on) since I think the list above is more than enough for comparative discussion.

Now, if you are able to master all the above from the 9 schools of the Bujinkan and still have time to practise other arts, I applaud you! Someone wise said 1 school requires 1 lifetime to master, 9 schools = 9 lifes...

All the above things are contained in the ryu-ha. As everyone knows, Bujinkan is a very open and free organisation. There are few rules on how to conduct ones practise. Some may want to stay in a LARP world, doing stuff that wouldnt even scare my mom but this does not take away the fact that the material available is massive and its the capactity of the practitioner (and their teacher/s) that determines how far they will go.

A very long post to say that I dont think it necessary to crosstrain in any other art as long as one can judge ones own capacity and now and then step out of the comfort zone to test it against others.

Regards / Skuggvarg

 

Perhaps the title is misleading yes, but you agree on that the content of the first post is not?

I do not practice Wing Chun so I cannot speak for that style, but in the nine ryûha under Hatsumi sensei, there's grappling, kicking, striking, throwing... you name it. And that is my point - to become proficient at them you need to be able to apply the techniques not only against people who practice the same style, but any style. Question is, how do you reach that level?

By going to a muay thai club, explaining why you are there, participating in their classes, and asking to spar with them from your own perspective, try out things, experience, fail, learn, do better, etc.

 

????????????
How do you choke an arm?

 

If only there was some form of limited rules competition or event format where martial artists of different sorts could come together to test themselves and what they can do eh?
It would sort of be like mixing things together.

 

I think ninjutsu practitioners need to train in another (higher contact) art rather than merely training against practitioners of another art. The areas that ninjutsu practitioners will be weak in as a result of their non-resistant training will require instruction to mend, random sparring against opponents of uncertain quality will not fix the problem. I believe that a year of regular instruction in a heavy contact art would provide people with the tools to assess whether their other art has been providing them with valid techniques and strategies, or whether their instructor has been teaching them nonsense.

I would recommend a striking art rather than a grappling art for people training in ninjutsu. The reason I would recommend a striking art rather than a grappling art is that ninjutsu appears to be more geared to striking rather than grappling (correct me if I am wrong, just going by my impression from youtube). Also the level of adrenal dump is much higher in striking arts than in grappling arts (ideally you would be doing both of course). Rolling is quite different to sparring because the fight-or-flight reaction is ramped up less in rolling than in sparring. It takes many months of full-contact sparring to get used to it, regardless of the art. This means that your first few months are needed just to learn to relax and breathe correctly so you aren't gassing out and also to learn how to keep your eyes on your opponent without flinching. Also at the beginning the learning curve for striking is much steeper than the learning curve for grappling, someone with two years of BJJ or Judo is a beginner and still learning basic techniques, wheras after two years of boxing you should know the basic techniques, and be working on refining them.

If MMA or Jeet Kune Do (or even Aikido) fits your personal training requirements better than ninjutsu then you should be learning those instead. Anyone with any level of common sense thinks about what their training requirements are before they pick an art. People look at an art and ask "is this good for self-defence" or "is this good for keeping me in shape" or many similar questions. Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation out there, and the ratio of truth to lies is pretty terrible. If someone is concerned with applicability but also wants to learn a so-called traditional art then a year of sport arts will give tools by which they can assess all their future training. Without these tools people are much more susceptible to unscrupulous instructors. If learning a ryû-ha is important to you, but you also want your training to be teaching you effective combat skills, then training in a heavy-contact art (for at least a year) will give you skills to assess the instruction provided in the ryû-ha and whether it meets your needs (otherwise you may as well just cross your fingers and hope for good ninjutsu instruction, and I wouldn't rate your chances as being particularly high).

 

An by doing that you'll more likely than not have a good understanding of muay Thai and become proficient in the basics?

 

Hehe

Obviously, to do well in competition I think one would have to train for that setting. I don't think we can escape the fact that ninjutsu is not intended for ring competition. But I do think that it is possible to practice with people of other styles, using ninjutsu, so that one is better off in a situation when one is facing an aggressor who comes at you with attacks you are otherwise not used to. (And this is not counting in the real-life-or-death factors that also play a role in such a situation.)

 

Very true. I wasn't clear about this, and it is a big point. Of course, a certain level of understanding and basic skills would come from this.

But my aim in sparring for example would not be to work a roundhouse kick, but perhaps see how to use a Togakure ryû kage geri. For example.