IMA anti grapple and anti lock

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by middleway, Sep 7, 2005.

  1. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    Hi guys,

    Just uploaded a couple more video's of my teacher. there is sound on these unlike some of the others so that you can get some context as to what is going on.

    Here Alex is showing the concept of using connected slaps to overcome grappling intentions.

    http://www.ukbaguainstitue.com/vids/antithrow.mov

    Here Alex shows escaping from locks using spiraling force and grabbling and tearing flesh. The detail isnt very visible in this clip, but you can tell from my reaction that it wasnt a nice feeling .....

    http://www.ukbaguainstitue.com/vids/antilock.mov

    Both are from a grappling instructional vid.

    Cheers
    Chris
     
  2. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

  3. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Do you have any clips of this being used in any kind of sparring?
     
  4. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    you honestly think you could slap your way to victory?

    does anyone remember that video from a brazilian tv show which had wanderlei silva rolling about with a couple of guys (they were the hosts of the show i think, no training)

    he was slapping them REAL hard, left some badass marks, but it didnt make them jerk about like a fish and render them unable to attack like that dude. which leads me to believe that either that video was bollocks, or that guy slaps harder than the middleweight champ of Pride. take your pick.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2005
  5. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    I think if slapping was so effective, alot more people would use it....
     
  6. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    ok .. we are not talking about just slapping here.

    We are talking about connected 'Short power' hitting with the palm.

    As for would this work on a trained grappler. I trained Judo with British olympic squad guys ... and reached a good level and i am a dan grade in Ju Jutsu. It worked very well on me. I also teach a MMAist and he is very good, trained by one of the biggest names in this country .... it works well on him too ...

    NO .. this is used as a tactic to halt a grappling intention so that you can throw or down the guy quickly with big strikes.

    Believe me ... take a strike to the ribs or spine as shown on the clip and you will not want to open your body like that again to try and throw. It is not nice. And no matter how good a grappler you are ... it makes you stop ... even for a split second, this is all that is needed.

    that guy is me. And yes alex does hit harder that a pride fighter IMO ... (course this may be hard for some to believe as MMA is the be all and end all ... isnt it?) having trained Muay thai and a bunch of other arts with good teachers .. none has the same hitting power as alex ... it hurts in a different way, penetrating past the surface. Alex has taught in thailand at Muay Thai camps and in hong kong at San Shou camps ... in fact he offers studetns that visit him in thailand the opportunity to go at it with a pro Muay thai fighter. So he must have some level of authenticity to his skill ....

    Also REMEMBER THIS IS AN INSTRUCTION VIDEO... NOT real fighting. of course in real combat i would have tried to keep going ... but this is a demonstration of a principle.

    Although in this session i did attempt a shot, and was duely 'slapped' in the spine, very nearly knocking me unconsious and leaving me a sit down of about 10 minutes.

    The few times that i have exchanged with Alex .. really going for it ... i have been hurt very very fast. And i have a good amount of experience in sport fighting.

    IMAists do use it .. as seen here. If you are talking about in grappling sports or mixed martial arts ... The bases of these sport styles(generally Muay Thai, BJJ, Kyokushin, Range Fighting, Pankration, Sambo etc) dont generally include powerful slapping or palm hitting training ... hence part of the reason why the slapping used in Pride etc is ineffective .... they do not train this skill.

    Thanks for the comments. Thats why i put these vids out there ... for opinions.

    Regards
    Chris
     
  7. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Middleway, do you have any videos of this working in any kind of sparring? Not anecdotes, actual videos?
     
  8. jimmytofu

    jimmytofu A majority of one

    You've obviously never seen Hulk Hogan doing some slapping :eek:
     
  9. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    define sparring? do you mean sport sparring ... boxing style where two people stand at an equal distance appart trying to hit each other? or where two people hold each others clothes and try to thow the other like Judo?

    this art isnt a sport so not in that sense.

    As for working against commited unrehersed attacks i will sift through the stuff i have got and make a clip when i have time. Or maybe cover this in a class and video it.

    There were no anecdotes in my last post so i am not too sure what you mean?

    Regards
    Chris
     
  10. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    What you're talking about is legal in MMA so there's no reason why you can't use it in sparring. The sport vs street issue is irrelevant.
     
  11. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    no body is talking about sport vrs street ...

    I am saying that the art in question ba gua .. is not a sport art ... and doesnt train in the same 'sparring focused' way as MMA or other fighting sports.

    Hence having footage of it in that context is not to easy.

    Also whether or not it is legal in MMA is irrelevant. I really dont see how this is even related to the comments i made? I never said this wasnt legal ...

    All i said is that most MMA gyms do not train short power palm strikes ... not because they are not effective but because they are not part of the base arts that most MMA gyms train i.e - Muay Thai, Ju Jutsu, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Kyokushin etc.

    we are steadily drifting away from the topic. This is not a 'this stuff beats MMAs' thread but a thread to show some 'ideas' on shocking grapplers or halting there movement.

    regards
    Chris
     
  12. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    So what you're saying is, you don't spar because you're not practicing a sport?
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2005
  13. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    we dont spar in a sport way.

    generally how we free practice is ...

    one person attacks with whatever they want as hard as they want ... with no pads .... and the other guy responds ... There is also the practice where multiple people attack simultaniously with whatever they want ... and where multiple or single people attack with sticks and knives.

    to get to the stage where this is 'safe' to practice and takes a fair amount of training.

    There are many levels of this sort of free practice ...

    ... this sort of work ends pretty fast in most instances.

    chris
     
  14. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Do you keep fighting for as LONG as you want?
     
  15. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Like Timmy and others have suggested, I have reservations about these techniques based on the videos. In particular, the slapee (is that you Middleway?) doesn't seem particularly good at either shooting or applying a headlock (especially when the instructor is taller). Or at least they are not doing it in a particularly committed fashion (though the slaps seems pretty committed... darn instructors).

    I'd like to see these performed on video on a resistive opponent (what Timmy is referring to as "sparring") to actually get a better notion of their application. I'd like to see someone aggressively moving in for a grapple with enough momentum to drive the instructor backwards if he misses. Likewise for the locking defense, I'd like to see the headlock aggressively applied, attempting to pull the instructor over.

    I think those types of footage would reduce a lot of the push back your currently getting.

    Also "anti-" anything tends to push most people's buttons.

    - Matt
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2005
  16. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    I can see where you are going .. how is this different to sport sparring.

    Yes you can keep going for as long as you want ... This is generaly not long though.

    It is a very different mindset to the Judo and Muay Thai sport fighting i have done.

    In judo there are periods of where both opponents are searching or looking for good grips, openings etc. In Muay Thai the opponents will keep a set range, bouncing around, before heading in to kick, punch and clinch range.

    these periods of 'rest' or tactical consideration are not there in the type of work done that i am talking about. It is based on violent and contiued attack ... followed by powerful and continued responce.

    here master Su Dong Chen shows movement against Multiple opponents. He is just using soft slaps to indicate strikes. But this sort of movement work is part of the above training.

    hhtp://www.ukbaguainstitute.com/master su _multiple_attackers.WMV

    this will only be up for a short time.

    regards
    Chris
     
  17. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    So the long and the short of it is, you don't have a video of this working against a committed, competent attacker who is determined to take him down and keep coming at him until he succeeds?
     
  18. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    thanks matt .... yes that is me being hurt ... alot....

    the purpose of this film was instructional. I do understand the comitment angle. but if this were a real fight i wouldnt be doing those moves on someone as tall as alex... it is mierly to demonstrate principle.

    One thing i will say in my defence is that Alex has extremely good root. This basically means that i have trouble moving him when running into him let alone throwing him and im not too small a guy. Most people that have been on video with Alex look like idiots due to his skill level.

    Agreed ... my term Anti throw .... may have raised a few backs ...

    Thanks Chris
     
  19. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    So, you don't. You haven't raised any backs, but you're certainly not going to convince anyone. No-one will take these ideas seriously unless they are seen being used in realistic situations against people who know what they're doing.
     
  20. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    correct... this is an instructional film discussing principles.

    see the video in my last post for similar work.

    As i said Timmy ... i am willing to meet up and show you this work. maybe that would be better than a video? but you diclined.

    Regards
    Chris
     

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