I'm new here...

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Mark 42, Apr 8, 2011.

  1. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    Just saying hello.

    My Son wanted to do martial arts, and that has led to a search for a good school,
    and (skipping a lot of details) ended me up at this forum. It's becoming
    a long story.

    A lot of the story about my search so far is on another forum.
    I'd post a link to the message thread over there, but I'll have to
    read the rules to see if that is allowed (I once got :ban: from
    a forum for posting a link to a "competing forum". Somehow I don't
    think this one is like that (from what I've seen so far).

    I live in Federal Way, Tacoma and Olalla, Washington ('nother long story)

    I've had too many hobbies over the years to tell about - don't have
    any right now because we are in the process of moving. It's looking
    like Martial Arts may be our next endeavor for awhile... hopefully for
    a long time, but we have started and then lost momentum in a lot of
    activities.

    Even sailing, which is my main lifelong hobby, has been sporadic.
    But I do like a challenge, and since I'm not athletically gifted
    (read: uncoordinated) I may enjoy the challenge.

    I plan to do a lot of reading around here, and I'm not good at just
    lurking (yeah, I talk too much), so you'll probably see me in the forums.
     
  2. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Welcome to MAP.
     
  3. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Welcome aboard Mark :D

    Mitch
     
  4. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    Thanks for the welcomes.

    Here is where the thread I posted in another forum resides:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105012

    I checked the rules, and I think It's allowable to post the link.
    I did see that it is preferred that content be posted directly,
    so I'll paste a lot of it in below, but in case you want to see
    it in context and see the replies in between I'm providing the
    link too.
     
  5. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    Our Search for A Martial Arts School for Our Kids

    Here is the first post:
    (I may do some editing to adapt it for this audience)

    My Son wanted to try Martial Arts, and when my wife took them
    to a local TKD school, my daughter (surprisingly) wanted to participate;
    probably because they have been watch a lot of a cartoon called "Avatar,
    the last airbender" (or something like that - I'm trying to remember the exact
    name of it). She (Elizabeth) is about 14.5 yrs old.
    but I'm jumping ahead a bit...

    We're still working on finding the right school.

    When my son (Drew, 13 yrs old) said he was interested, I contacted a colleague
    who I know is involved (seriously) in Karate. I told him there is a Karate Dojo
    less than 1/4 mile from our house (http://www.dragoncenterkarate.com),
    and asked if he knew anything about them, and/or could he recommend a Karate school.

    He said he didn't know of them personally, since the website didn't list the instructors'
    names. He did recommend the program at the Auburn YMCA, because he knows the
    instructors there and trusts them.

    My wife went to the Auburn YMCA, found out it costs for the classes and a YMCA
    membership which sounded like a lot (back then), but we may have to reconsider...

    Our Real Estate agent (lives near us) recommended a Tae Kwan Do school that her
    son goes to called "Master Shon's TKD". The kids did the 1 month intro for $29, which
    included a uniform. At the end of the introduction, we went into the office to talk about
    signing them up…, TALK ABOUT STICKER SHOCK! About $1000 per year or more, 6 month
    minimum commitment, and that doesn't include sparring equipment and testing fees.

    Master Shon is very good with our daughter, who has Asperger's Syndrome, which manifests
    as being extraordinarily uncoordinated (It's a bit like ADHD). I wasn't impressed with how
    they handle new students though - they put 13 and older in with adults (which is okay),
    and just have them join the class in progress (for white, orange & yellow belts) and try
    to follow along. Maybe that is normal for Martial Arts though?

    They do break off into smaller groups (2-3 students) and have younger blackbelt assistant
    instructors work with them, but they really don't break down the mechanics of each move
    (e.g. block, kick, punch). A lot of times they just have them cross the floor while throwing
    punches and kicks, without an emphasis on form (good exercise, I guess). But I haven't seen
    enough classes & also lack the experience to really judge this.

    I don't think it is a good value though. It seems instruction should be more detailed, to my
    unqualified perception.

    Next, My wife took them to Dragon Center (http://www.dragoncenterkarate.com/),
    which is the one we asked my colleague about earlier. The instructor there spent about an hour
    (or more) showing them the mechanics of the motion for some block(s) (Star pattern block?)
    and seemed to spend a lot more time on the fundamentals of the moves. I'm did find out the
    name of the Sinsei there... Rex Baggett II. His instructor is Jerry Gould.

    It is actually more expensive than Master Shon's, but if there are no testing fees, and with
    fuel costs, it may less expensive in reality, and probably be a better value (the quality sounds
    better - I haven't been there yet, but my wife knows me, and said I would be much more impressed
    with the teaching).

    They also said if both kids sign up, we would be eligible for the family plan (up to 5 for the price of 2),
    which would mean I could do it for free. It would be hard to commit right now because we are still in
    the process of moving from Olalla to Fed Way/Tacoma, but I may go for it. I can't convince my wife
    to try it. Maybe eventually, but right now she has no interest, and also has problems with her shoulders
    (surgery on one side, other side starting to hurt).

    Dragon Center teaches Shobayashi Shorin Ryu to adult students. Can you tell me anything about that?
    I know if I start the course, I will probably want to stay with it, but sometimes life gets in the way.

    Next, my wife found a small Ninjutsu Dojo not far from home.
    http://www.kogenninpodojo.com
    It's currently in the Sinsei's converted garage, but they are in the process of moving into a storefront
    type commercial building very soon. They just started a new instruction series a week ago, so my kids
    should be able to use what they learned at Master Shon's and Dragon Center to catch up with the class
    quickly enough. They will be taking their first class in about an hour, I plan to go watch.

    It's very inexpensive, not far from home, and both of my kids love it so far. It almost seems too inexpensive
    to be legit... I'm certainly not complaining!

    The Ninjutsu Dojo seem to take themselves very seriously, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But they
    could be a small group of overenthusiastic semi-fanatics thinking they are training real life Jedi Knight equivalents.

    http://www.kogenninpodojo.com/Dojo_Rules.html

    To have live in students who Live at the Dojo, do Dojo Maintenance
    (notice the handyman training available), and do the Sensei's bidding
    including arrive 2 hr before and 1 hr after classes...

    http://www.kogenninpodojo.com/Uchi_Deshi.html

    Sounds pretty serious.

    I wanted to know more about Ninjutsu, did a Google search, followed
    various links, and on...
    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?genbukan_techniques

    Which isn't the Dojo I'm looking at, may not be Nijustsu, but, I found...
    http://www.genbukan.org/s3/site/movies/10thKyuHappoTenchiTobi.wmv

    (Ninja Hokey Pokey?)

    I'm not in Martial Arts, so it's hard for me to appreciate the usefulness of a Kata like that one.

    I'll post my thoughts on the Pros & Cons of the Ninjutsu Dojo tomorrow, but essentially it goes
    something like... It's cheap, it's close to home. As long as they are not unsafe, at a minimum,
    my kids will gain physical condition (aerobic, stamina and flexibility), coordination, and reinforcement
    of values like respect, which we try to instill in them (I think we are pretty successful, IMHO).

    I need to get going so I'm not late to their class.
    I'll write more tomorrow if I can.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  6. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    And, the next day...

    I went to the kids' class last night.
    It started with stretching, some of the stretches are unusual (like stretching wrists
    & hands by bending them backward a bit, and modified (i.e. "girl") pushups done
    on thumbs & then middle finger knuckle & then fingertips). A few more standard stretches.
    Then Japanese language instruction review (basics - counting to ten, please, thank you,
    certain moves etc.). Then a pledge in Japanese while bowing towards the "Dojo Shrine".
    Then they did forward roll, side roll, and a move to break free of a grasp.
    Next, there was a test on the Japanese (which they had studied at home) and if they
    got reasonably close, they got their White Belt. My kids didn't have 3 classes done, so
    they weren't eligible yet, but will test for it on Monday. They will have no problem passing
    - and I think the Sensei sensed that, because he said he will count their introductory lesson
    as one of the 3 classes... otherwise they'd just have to wait one more class is all.
    After that, they bowed to the shrine in a short "Closing ceremony" similar to the
    "opening ceremony" above.
    Then someone asked about some wooden doors which had gate bolts to hold them
    closed. I could see the doors were used as target (backstops) for sharp objects.
    He opened the doors, and had a small armory stored inside. He let everyone, including
    parents, have a go at throwing a "Ninja Star" at the doors (which are very thick soft wood,
    probably cedar or doug fir). He had one person at a time throw, and everyone else stood
    safely behind. I sucked at it, everyone else did pretty good. I was surprised how well
    they did and how bad my aim was, because I juggle and do archery & other "marksmanship" sports.

    All in all, it was a chance for the kids to stretch, work on coordination, and exercise their
    minds by learning a few simple words & phrases in a foreign language.

    My kids love it.
    I think what they really love is being able to tell friends they are training to be Ninjas.
    (Footnote: They have since been told not to tell everyone - we've been warned that
    it can lead to challenges and other problems)

    The Sensei is pretty patient, and laid back. There is a lot of ceremony done,
    but not in a rigid manner (no "YES SIR!" type stuff - a little bit of which would
    actually be better IMHO).

    I'm not sure he will know how to work with my Asperger kid, but he's done well
    coaching her so far.

    ONE REALLY GOOD POINT FOR MASTER SHON'S TKD:
    On his website he did mention something about ADHD, I don't
    remember exactly what it was, but it indicated that they have
    some understanding of working with ADHD kids (Asperger's
    Syndrome has similarities). And watching him work with Elizabeth,
    I can see that he has a gift at working with such kids. His assistants
    were doing fine too, but being as young as they are, they don't
    always know how to really adapt to a very uncoordinated kid
    other than to encourage and to be patient and repeat instructions...
    which is pretty good - but it's hard to explain what the difference
    is between just patient instruction and with a person who has a gift for
    teaching ADHD type kids.

    But that place is not upfront about all of the costs, and there are
    some areas that I think could be improved - but I'm far from expert.
    I really didn't like the fact that it felt like I was buying a used car...
    the business tactics felt sneaky to me. If a business is on the up & up,
    why wouldn't they be willing to give me a list of all of the fees and
    costs in writing? Taking us into the office and flipping through a binder
    of various payment plan options just seems too much like the typical
    carpet sales experience... or HVAC, or other businesses where there
    are a lot of charlatans who use tactics like "If you sign today, I can sell
    you a system that was leftover from a large tract of homes when we
    ordered too many - I'll discount it by what it would cost us to send it back!"

    I don't like pressure sales tactics.
    (Note, I'm not saying everyone who sells carpet or HVAC Systems is crooked,
    but I have bad experiences with those).
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  7. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    The nice thing about the Ninja Dojo is that there is no contract.
    They do charge a membership fee (annual, I think).

    I found that most places charge what they call a "Down Payment".
    But because it usually isn't applied towards your monthly instruction fees the
    way that a down payment on a loan is applied toward the principal loan amount,
    it is really more like an initiation fee (a non-recurring membership fee).

    Master Shon was very nice, and EXTREMELY good at working with my daughter
    and encouraging her to do her best even though she looks awkward when she does
    the moves.
    He seems to have a gift for working with kids who find physical skills to be more
    challenging than most kids do. Unfortunately, the business style, the large class
    size for a such a small space, and the way that many levels are grouped together
    makes it feel like a McDojo. I think he does want to teach, and is probably in it for
    his love of the sport, but the fact that it is a business is really apparent.

    The Dragon Center seemed to be really good - though I have not observed it for myself;
    I am going by my wife's description. They would also allow me to learn for no extra charge.
    I'm not sure if they had testing fees like the others do.

    For now, we'll let the kids do the Ninjustu thing for awhile, and continue to research
    other schools. My wife is building a spreadsheet for cost omparisons.
    It's complicated to compare the costs because the fee structures have so much variation
    (Family discount packages, advance purchase discounts, memberships, test fees, equipment
    required, etc.) and sometimes there are fees that aren't fully disclosed (like a rapid increase
    in testing fees as the level of belts increase)

    My wife is getting frustrated with me because I keep asking things like "Is that the testing
    fee for the lowest levels only? How much for higher levels? How many levels are there,
    and how often will they be testing?"

    It's looking like it costs about half as much to get to a black belt level as it does to get
    a private pilot's license - which is a lot of money.

    Overall, at the moment, I'm leaning towards going to the Dragon Center, even though it is
    on the expensive side.

    Oh, BTW, about 30 years ago I had an opportunity to learn Kung Fu for free. It's a long story...
    but it required a commitment to intensive training (the teacher, a friend, needed a protege for
    an upcoming convention). At that point in my life I was not ready for such a commitment.

    Also, about the same time, I ran into an old classmate from my Junior high school (hadn't seen
    him for almost 10 years). He said he was doing "Jun Kune Do". Explaine it by throwing me his
    wris****ch, and pointing out that I didn't get into a special position before catching it, just
    did what was efficient for catching the watch.I really liked (and still like) that philosophy.

    I looked into it, and from what I figure, it just have been Jeet Kune Do, maybe the Jun Fan style?

    If I could find a reasonably priced Jeet Kune Do school close to home (Federal Way / NE Tacoma),
    I would be very interested in checking that out.
    (Footnote: we checked out NW Kali, and decided we wanted something a bit more traditional)

    I sorta wish I'd done it back then (30 years ago), but from what I know about myself now,
    chances are I wouldn't have stuck with it until today... though you never know.

    Anyways, that should give y'all some idea of where I'm at and where I'm coming from... at this point.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  8. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    Continuatuion:

    ...I will let them know that they need to be careful about who they tell, and how they say it.
    I think I'll even mention it to the Sensei - he seems like a person who would be open minded
    to hearing a suggestion for a good curriculum topic. He could reinforce it in the kids class.
    I did notice that the Dojo has a large first aid kit and an AED on the wall (a fire extinguisher too),
    so he seems safety conscious.
    (Footnote: it's not an AED - it's a first aid how to machine of some sort - it gives instructions
    when a person pushes a button for a given scenario. It's bright yellow like some AEDs are)

    They may not learn any real martial arts there, but I think after a while, they will figure it
    out & start asking about other schools. If we find a good school in the meantime, I think
    they'll be fine with changing to it (they tend to trust our judgment, and would be able to
    see the accuracy in it if I tell them that what they are learning may be fun, and good exercise,
    but may not be very useful for self defense).
    Maybe the lessons will become valuable after the initial instruction is done if the focus shifts
    to real martial arts (There is such thing as proper Ninjutsu that is taught in a useful / genuine
    martial art, no?)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  9. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    After that, the message thread started to unravel (pun intended).
    This is the last installment I'll paste here:

    ...I'll discuss the Ninjutsu place with my wife again.
    I tried to explain to her that weapons training is not going to be useful other
    than for hand-eye coordination.

    I think we may let them "Play Ninja" for a couple of weeks or maybe a couple
    of months at most, but I don't see us sticking with it until they advance more
    than one or two belts while we find a long term school.

    Jeet Kune Do still interests me.
    I'd like them to go to a school where I could also train once I am ready to commit
    the time to it (once we settle into our new house - which is an old house & needs work)

    I definitely caught on to the Ninja Dojo's use of disciples as free labor around the sensei's house.
    Partly because I was thinking "Hmmm... there's a lot of work to be done on my house...
     
  10. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  11. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    Advice accepted - and I do agree.

    Both kids know that we are letting them go to Ninjutsu classes only until
    we find a place where we really like the way things are done, and that
    it's only because we know they like it there. They realize that our
    whole life is in a state of change right now (change is not easy on
    people with Asperger, but it's what life threw at us.)

    I don't want to pull them out while we are still searching because then
    we are back to having pressure to find something in a hurry because they
    would be chomping at the bit to get back to MA training. With all that is
    going on right now, we can only do so much searching at a time. Hopefully
    we will find the right school soon - it doesn't have to be perfect, but
    we do need something we can afford which is the right blend of traditional
    and practical training. The Karate classes at the YMCA is probably worth
    another look again.

    Eventually they may even start to want more out of it than what they are
    getting at the Ninjutsu Dojo (though they seem quite content with going there).
    They know that My wife and I think that it is not physically demanding
    enough - especially since it is supposed to meet their P.E. requirement
    for home schooling. They don't work up much of a sweat, and seldom
    even start breathing hard during the classes (At the TKD school they
    got a much better physical workout).

    You never know... maybe we'll start seeing the Ninjutsu school training
    improve for some reason. The school is going to move and begin teaching
    at the newbuilding possibly as early as next week. The Sensei has been
    spending a lot of time over there getting things ready - I'm sure his Soto Deshi
    must be exhausted ;)

    I am starting to become more open minded about styles I hadn't really
    considered - like Judo, Kung Fu, etc. (I know those two are not similar).

    If anyone knows a good school at an affordable price in the Federal Way
    and N.E. Tacoma area, please suggest it. I won't guarantee we will end up
    finding that we think it is right for us, but we will check it out. Just please
    don't be offended if we don't end up there - even if it is because we can't
    recognize how good it is because of our ignorance about Martial Arts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  12. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  13. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    Yeah... we have a lot of BMX, Archery, Sailing, and other sports equipment...
    though archery is only on hold until the weather improves.
    Of course, I'm talking about the kids' stuff - let's not talk about mine. :hammer:

    If it came down to it, I could live with them continuing at the school they are going
    to, but they are pretty good about realizing that their parents do have their best
    interests in mind. Our son is all for switching, but he's not the one with AS.
    Our daughter is mainly doing it because it's fun, and her brother is doing it.
    She had fun at the TKD school too, which has actually worked in our favor because
    she's keeping an open mind that the next school will probably be just as good.
    (sometimes she actually is pretty flexible and open minded).
    I think both of them liked some facets of the TKD school better than the Ninjutsu school.

    Let's hope we can find "the right one" really soon.

    I'll keep you posted (assuming y'all are interested)
     
  14. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  15. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    I'll honestly give that some thought.

    I think I misunderstood what you were trying to tell me.
    I thought you were suggesting we take them out of the Ninjutsu School
    while we are looking for the right place so they don't grow too attached.

    I see now that you are suggesting (If I understand right) that if they
    want to keep going there, even if it may not be what I think would
    be the best martial arts training for them, that maybe it would be
    best to let them continue there because they are motivated and enjoy it,
    which would probably lead to better learning in the long run.

    You may be right, I may not agree with that, but I'm not going to say
    I disagree yet either - I honestly will consider that carefully.

    In the message thread at the other forum, I completely the opposite
    advice (They basicallysaid "YOU are the parent, not the kids - you need to
    decide for them and tell them how it's going to be."

    I didn't agree with that either.

    I guess where I stand is - I will let them continue where they are currently
    going, keep looking for something my wife & I both like better (for them),
    and then try to persuade them to switch over to that school. If they
    are upset about the idea of the change, we'll re evaluate and maybe
    work something out - like giving them more time to come to the conclusion
    on their own, or if we can afford it, do both at the same and see if maybe
    they will recognize which is benefiting them more.

    Be patient with me - I really do want to do what's best for the kids.

    If it were just a matter of choosing a school which I would like to
    go to, I would have enrolled them and myself at NW Kali... but my
    daughter would flounder in that environment.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  16. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  17. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    Well i have no more to say to you as you keep going back and changing your posts after you have a reply.
     
  18. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    I'm sorry.
    I didn't think I changed the content.
    Every one of them was edited within a few minutes of when I posted them.
    I often post something and then edit it because I don't like the wording,
    or I made a typo. There's a good chance I edited my post before even
    seeing that there was a response.

    I don't know what I changed to cause such a reaction, but I apologize if
    I offended you.

    I had no intention to deceive anyone or anything like that -
    I only edited to clean up the format (like word wrapping vs.
    line breaks).

    Thanks anyways for the advice - it did get me thinking.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  19. Mark 42

    Mark 42 Senior Newbie

    Maybe somebody that was watching the discussion can explain to me where I went wrong?

    I actually thought I was agreeing with what you were saying, so I'm pretty confused.
     
  20. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    My advise as a father with a boy whose been diagnosed with severe AHDD ( inattentive ) is not to place too much emphasis on the school's authenticity, adherence to your particular art's classicism in the beginning, but rather, focus on a given school's pedagogy - does the instructor motivate your daughter? Is he or she able to develop a rapport with her and help her to work through some pretty sticky wickets common with ADD and AS such as spatial disorientation ( read over the excellent posts by chimpcheng in ' Teaching the Unteachable ' ) and other issues that would prohibit your daughter from being able to handle realistic MA training anyroad.

    So what if its 'Whoa Fat's White - Tiger Ninjitsu Power Rangers Academy', then? If the instructor is able to help your daughter in these initial stages, he's worth his weight in gold. When your daughter is ready, she can move on to more authentic schools.

    Someone of the calibre of chimpcheng is about one in several million - combining both authentic MA and the ability and heart needed to teach special needs kids. Expect to search for a long, long time before you find one...

    Cheers,

    PS

    Don't combine ADD medications, caffeine and late night posting to forums - one ends up all over the place and nowhere in the same instant ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2011

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