I'm back again, long time, etc.

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Stolenbjorn, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Funny you should say that; IMO there are more "complicated" techniques in the "german" masters than from Fiore regarding longsword (more guards, angles, details; Fiore basically have all long-play wrapped up in 2 different techniques). He allso sort of says that his masters were dooing too complicated stuff, and that he has simplified their stuff.

    Many years ago I too felt I had to choose what "style" the german or the Italian. Today, I train both, and see how they should be regarded as variations over the same system rather than very different systems. There was nothing even called Italy or Germany in the days of Fiore, and he states himself that he have learned his arts from "german" masters, and it's actually difficult to even try to interpret fiore without extensive knowledge of the german system.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  2. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    The later German stuff is nonsense. Meyer etc. I stick to Dobringer. Pretty much everything you need is in there.

    Italy and German did exist as concepts but not in the modern nations the we have today. Germania and Italia were roman provences and the terms were used as the latin system persisted through the church.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  3. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Well, Fiore never calls himself Italian. And he lived most of his younger life (which would be first half of 1300's) north of the alpes.

    The way I see it, all the germans base their teachings on Liechtenauer, and IMO, Fiore does as well.
     
  4. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    Hey Beardude.
     
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Yeah but there are fundamental differences better Fiore and the Leichtenauer line. Fiore fights mainly in the innes and nacht, he chambers many of his cuts. I agree he certainly based his fencing on Leichtenauer but what he has written in his manuals actually contradicts alot of what Leichtenauer says. Mind you he isn't as bad as Talhoffer who puts some absolutely bizarre things into his manual.

    The Bear.
     
  6. Mark Lancaster

    Mark Lancaster Valued Member

    Wow Bear, there's some pretty wide sweaping statements about Fiore. Several things not right (audience being one example). Also what do you mean by he chambers his cuts?
     
  7. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Well, I know someone who studied medieval italian and Fiore in particular and that was his analysis of the manuals.
    Chambering, pulls the point back before going forward. Atleast that is how every practioner I've ever seen doing Fiore has interprets it. A horrible horrible thing.

    The Bear.
     
  8. Mark Lancaster

    Mark Lancaster Valued Member

    Ouch - I understand. That's bad analysis and unfortunate observations. :mad:

    On the chambering - we (as a group) never do/train this. If it is done then it is down to individual bad technique and is something to be hammered out of the individual (along with anything else that will sell your intentions and/or get you killed).

    Fiore is the only surviving medieval Italian manuscript (unless you skip forward 70 years to Vadi) and he does not give any instruction on how to cut or thrust with any blow (colpi). Fiore assumes that you already know how to fight and then gives advice on the best lines of attack, targets, etc.

    If you see anyone staying out of measure, being only second mover/defensive, selling their attacks, refusing to close, etc. then that is down to them individually - it's not Fiore or a good interpretation. (the only exception I would add is silly competition/match rules that encourage "playing the points").

    Cheers,

    Mark
     
  9. emaaoz

    emaaoz Valued Member

    If you can get to Eugene then there is a guy with a good rep teaching Classical Fencing and Fiore...
     
  10. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Yeah, it's a symptom of a lack of pressure testing. You know the groups who pressure test enough. All the fancy stuff goes out the window early doors and the fencing become agressive and businesslike.
    I don't have a problem with people fencing for style but I get very tired of being called thugs because we fence for efficacy.

    The Bear.
     
  11. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Thanks for the info. After a bit of googling, I'm guessing you're talking about Sean Hayes and the Northwest Fencing Academy/Northwest Academy of Arms? I looked up its website (http://www.northwestacademyofarms.com/) and it looks like a solid program. However, even if Eugene wasn't a six-hour round trip away, I meant it when I said that for my own training, I tend to prefer the modern, sporting approach. I think it's interesting to learn about the historical approach and I enjoy learning what I've learned from the historical WMA practitioners here, but I fenced Olympic epee through high school, competed on a national level, and I really had a great time with it. That's what I like for myself. I've got no illusions about becoming nationally competitive again now that I've got two young kids at home, but I do enjoy the modern sport training methodology, the rules and tactics of the modern sport, the intensity of competition, etc.
     

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