Iai in the Bujinkan by Hatsumi sensei

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Big Will, May 17, 2011.

  1. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    For those who are interested in Bujinkan iai, there is plenty of different iai demonstrated by Hatsumi sensei on the 2001 Daikomyosai DVD (the theme was Gyokko Ryû), the third day.
     
  2. Canit

    Canit Valued Member

    Two good sized chunks of it are on Youtube.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8TFobyxDFI"]Part One[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xovpsHe4i8"]Part Two[/ame]
     
  3. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Hmmm.....Interesting....Several deeply flawed principles shown in the first video...Fun though..

    Thanks!
     
  4. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    Please to elucidate, Dr. Jones. :bow1:


    - Mark Spada
     
  5. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Hahah...Nowhere near my "Doctor" level just yet....Just slowly getting dustier....(About all I have in relation to him!)...

    Okay....I actually wanted to see what those here in the Bujinkan made of the comment and if they could see what I meant...But I guess I could ask you about one of the more obvious problems?...(One at least eh?)..

    Starting at 08.20 in to the first video...There is a huge problem with the principle being demonstrated in the waza (One that might come from a weak aite, or a weak kata I couldn't say for sure)...Technique-wise I'm sure it it what it is...But the principle being demoed at that point is fundamentally flawed...I'm sure you can see what I mean...(I asked a friend here in work what he though since he doesn't do Ken, and his reply was close enough, so I'm sure you'll see what I mean)..

    If no-one picks up on it then I'll elucidate of course, but I'd like to see what level I'm (and Hatsumi is) working with...

    Regards..
     
  6. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    I think I see what you are looking at ( at approximately 08:20 in.... ).

    A friend of mine and MAP member was actually part of the group that was in attendance that evening. I'll see if I can convince him to take a look at this and maybe share his viewpoint on it.


    - Mark Spada
     
  7. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Thanks Mark..

    I know there are some that will see what I mean fairly easily, but I suspect that the majority of the Bujinkan (and certainly those here) won't see what is wrong in that waza (at least)... And I also suspect that that is what allows Hatsumi to do some of the things he does...

    I'd appreciate the feedback that your friend throws in too! There's no "right" of course, but there certainly is a "wrong", and I'd like to see what people can come up with here...:cool:

    Regards
     
  8. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Looks ok to me. But I'm no expert.


    What do you perceive to be the principles are that are being (poorly) demonstrated?
     
  9. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Those are not from the 2001 Daikomyosai... those are just Ayase sessions with sword if I am not mistaken. EDIT: And they are from the Ken, Tachi, Katana DVD.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  10. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    For those who for some reason can't see that video:

    The technique is: Someya sensei attacks with a cut from daijôdan, and Sôke demonstrates two different ways of doing a horizontal iai against the opponents hands/arms, one with a step straight in and the other with an aruki ashi cross step away from the line of the cut.

    The major principle as I can see it is to draw your sword and with it stop the opponent's attack. Another version of this same principle can be seen here http://vimeo.com/3739989 by Kacem Zoughari at exactly 01:24.

    I'm very interested in knowing what is deeply flawed in that principle.

    If you are talking about what most people without training (referring to your co-worker) will say ("if uke would continue the attack, tori would get cut"), then I will first ask: 1) how often do you think someone stood in dajôdan no kamae waiting to cut a person in front of him in shizen no kamae? And as a second comment, 2) When/if it would happen, in that same iai principle exist several different movements - not only including stopping by cutting the hands, but by stopping the blade, redirecting the flow of the blade, tsuki against body, and others. That is the principle behind the principle, and if one looks at Hatsumi sensei and doesn't see all of that (and I see it already from my very low level of practice) then one obviously misses out on a lot.

    (If this was not the principle you were talking about, please elaborate more on your thoughts. It would be interesting!)
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  11. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    And how determined would tori really be to continue his cut and propel himself onto the blade?
     
  12. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Care to elaborate dear fifthchamber,

    I may have an idea of why you consider it fundamentally flawed but I would like to hear it in your own words before I chip in.

    Sincerely,
     
  13. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    Fifthchamber,
    The demonstration looks typical to the way Hatsumi sensei normally shows things. He doesnt show with great precision or detail just floating so for most who look at it they wont get it. A few will recognize what it is and how it works (probably only those with prior training). Someya sensei knows how to handle a sword and so does Hatsumi sensei. One may be fooled by the looks of it.

    Regards / Skuggvarg
     
  14. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    The issue I had with that technique is nothing to do with the actual waza Hatsumi performs...(There are differences from what we do in Takeuchi Ryu, of course, but I won't comment on them, since it's more than reasonable that Hatsumi does his own Iai)...

    The problem I had with that technique especially is in regards to timing..I'm sure Someya Sensei knows Ken...But what is demoed there is a lack of timing (Or rather, an extremely bad use of it) in sword...(And if I'm not mistaken it was Someya Sensei demoing the fukuro shinai against Chris Crudelli in "Kick **** Moves"? No? If so, then I would say his swordwork leaves a lot to be desired.. If not then forgive me, I'm mistaken.)...

    Someya-san ISN'T attacking Hatsumi....That's my issue with it....If he was, Hatsumi's draw would be a response to his movement...It's not...Someya moves after Hatsumi has drawn...A move that (in this case, and most others) would result in death for the late starter...His "attack" is a response to what he is seeing (ie; His teacher being "ready" for his attack to start)... Not an attack meant to cut, or come close to cutting anything that wasn't standing totally still and wearing a Tee Shirt that said "Kill me"...

    It's a very small difference, but that principle is a huge problem...Hatsumi moves first, then the cut comes...Someya is waiting..Not attacking...(Hence my wondering what the waza IS.... And why it's highly possible it's a mistake on Someya's part).. I would agree with all here that a waza that teaches one to avoid an incoming attack from Jodan while drawing your own sword (something done in many other schools..Although not something I'd expect to be "practical" as far as it goes), is a good thing to have, but a waza that has the Uchidachi moving as a response to a draw started by the Shidachi is not one that will be likely to teach anything of value..

    My workmate here couldn't identify what was "directly" off with the waza, of course and I wouldn't have expected him to do so! It's not obvious..But he mentioned the delay (As well as the lack of any obvious "cut" from Someya, although I'd agree, that's not a huge problem given that Hatsumi is already cutting him)... I just wondered what the rest of you here who HAVE trained in Ken would think about that....That's all..

    I'm not trying to start an "Anthony" here....Just saying...If you did that technique, in that manner, and that response in my dojo, you'd get told to sit down and watch until you GOT it...(I say that because it IS Hatsumi demoing...And it's rather unusual to me to see someone at the head of the school be satisfied with an opponent who is so....Umm..."off" in the attack...)..

    Anyway...That's just what I see...Perhaps the waza IS Sen-sen no sen? (Although, for the life of me, I can't see why anyone would teach that..)..

    Regards..
     
  15. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    I couldn't disagree more.

    The timing looks good to me. Why would you not want to attack just before the cut? Why not cut into the intention?

    The second cut from uke is before Soke's cut anyway, and Soke seems to change his movement in response.

    The sudden movement also seems to stall uke.

    And why not teach Sensen no sen?

    How would you improve this? Do you have an example video of another schools version of this?

    (But I'm only a student and claim no wonderful abilities in this. That goes for use of multi-quote function too!!!!)
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  16. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    Dear Fifthchamber,

    Im happy you commented on the timing because that was the most obvious. Most could see that its off. This is typical of Hatsumi sensei. For outsiders looking at it it will look like crap. However, the waza are not shown in a structured or even "easy-to-comprehend" manner. Most cant even say if it was a formal waza being shown or just some henka. I believe this is a way to hide things in plain sight. Only a few will learn more deeply the waza. The rest just gets the flavor.

    Regards / Skuggvarg
     
  17. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Okay...Well...If you're happy with it..All's fine then eh?

    I just suggest not trying this with anyone who actually wants to cut you..(Or at least make a more than half hearted attempt at it..

    I am rather surprised at your reaction...Why do you think the Uchidachi would even bother to move if he saw Hatsumi drawing first? He has space, he has the lead, and he has a superior position...For a cut..But he waits...What's "fine" about that?

    Or more to the point, what is this teaching? (The "sudden movement" certainly doesn't "stall Uke" it causes him to start his attack..An attack that has already failed..)

    The attempt to recreate this technique that follows after, demoed by two westerners is somewhat closer to what I'd hope to see..And the timing looks bad, and the technique looks flawed....

    Anyway...Like I said...Just my opinion.....I'm not Bujinkan, and there may be reasons behind what Hatsumi does...But I'm lost...It makes very little sense as it stands...

    Anyway..
     
  18. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Skuggvarg...

    Are you saying Hatsumi demo's techniques so badly in an attempt to deceive watchers? (also IN the Bujinkan right?)

    Really?

    I dunno mate....I'm aware of Hatsumi's playfullness...I have seen a lot of it..And understand much of it, but in my humble opinion, the only way this technique would ever work is if you were fighting someone who would NEVER cut you...It's not "hidden"..It's just bad timing and a misunderstanding of intent by Ukedachi... No?
     
  19. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Well if your sure, I must be wrong, so thats that settled then.
     
  20. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Honestly?

    Yes, I think you are.

    With all due respects....

    (Don't worry, we all make mistakes...It's part of learning...)
     

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