I thought these days were over :(

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by icefield, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

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  2. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It's sad that these courses get any attendance, let alone sell out.

    I'm sure the instructor means well, but it's clear he doesn't understand self defence.

    He has created problems to fit the answers he is providing.

    As for becoming a force to be reckoned with, that sounds like a Krav Maga statement.
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  3. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    Years ago, at a catholic hospital I worked security at, I was required to go to an SD training for all hospital staff.....given by a nun.
    It was absolutely silly and mainly focused on getting away, while not hurting your attacker. And most of the applications taught, would not work

    I will leave you with this. In order to take a violent person down (meaning someone in the detox or mental health ward, or the ER) you needed 5 people. one per leg, one per arm and one to cradle their head so you would not hurt them. I broke the rules one night when a pro-wrestler was brought in, who was on something and highly aggressive. He charged me like a bull, with his head down. My side step, trip him and his face plant seemed to work well at stopping him. I simply did not have 4 other people on hand at the time
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I'mn the UK the goverment approved restraint system for mental hospitals is called "mapa" training, one on each limb, etc its designed to help restrain people without hurting them, when you have the required staff, its not that bad an approach, it also means safe staffing levels require that many staff.

    But restraining people is a different thing to self defence.

    I've done generic self defence/escape courses through work, and they're generally terrible.
  5. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I dunno, they don't claim to make the most elite deadly warriors ever, or any outlandish claims like that.

    Is a twelve week self defense course as good as, say, four hours per week of striking and grappling continued indefinitely for your adult life? Of course not. But people willing to make that sort of investment in self defense, people like the folks on MAP, are not the target market.

    If a class like this motivates someone to do something, anything, it's helpful in some (not all) situations. Maybe not when attacked by a violent predator ready to fight, but the majority of predators are instead acquaintances, and in many of those situations, fighting back and yelling may cause the perpetrator to stop even if they don't result in an MMA-worthy KO or submission.

    The question in my mind is not whether it's as good training as martial arts enthusiasts seek out, but instead whether it's better than nothing, which is what the target market starts out with.
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What, you mean that video wasn't for realz? :eek:

    That's not what the marketing mentions at all though. It's all about walking home at night and being jumped by a stranger hiding behind a corner.

    Better to not have any physical component and stick to things that will make a difference than build false confidence. Probably wouldn't be a sell-out course though...
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    I am generally not a fan of "Women's self defense courses" Although I have seen a couple, usually given by police departments in the USA. But the majority I have seen, or had explained to me, appear to be attempting to teach overly complicated SD moves in a few short hours, or making it unrealistic and not making it clear as to how violent things can get. If they keep it simple, and base it in reality, then they can be of benefit
  8. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    It was bloody awful, most of the training for defense/escape the nun gave would either not work or get the person attempting it hurt. I liked the "How to get out of a choke hold" that had you pushing the person away so you would not get hurt and they would not get hurt. I did not become the nuns favorite when I said, "if I get out of that hold and have there arm, I'm riding that sucker all the way to the wall, I'm not giving him the chance to turn and attack me again". She did not like that, or me, after that.

    I was never in an area, or an situation, where there was time to wait for folks to show up and generally there were not adequate staffing levels. Also, I was the guy they called when things went horribly wrong or when the police were bringing it someone in handcuffs. And upon seeing me show up, they would take off those cuffs, say you git it, and leave, which made for some rather interesting evenings, I do not care to relive. Especially when they brought someone in on a mental health warrant or you heroin addict in withdrawal.
  9. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    The video is entitled fight back and shows a woman disabling a determined attacker with two strikes as he does nothing.

    First the title bothers me because serious thought should be given to fighting back and escalating over just giving him your personal items.

    Secondly does anyone thing a confrontation between a smaller weaker person and a bigger determined attacker is going down like that?

    Then what bothers me is there other clips, only sparring clip is two women not using any type of gloves slapping at each other at a range that's unrealistic and not wing chun, the knife defence clip is someone running in waving the knife from.such a great distance you have time to back up and pick up.your own weapon.

    Neither of those situations is realistic and could get you in serious danger in a real situation by breeding false confidence.

    False confidence gets you killed it makes you try something when you aren't ready and aren't skilled enough but don't know any better.
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  10. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    So much of this. Better to know nothing than to know a tiny amount of something crap
  11. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    The sad thing is how many martial arts clubs breed similar, misplaced confidence in physical skills (without covering awareness and avoidance).
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    So do people think there is a time and format for a short but intensive self defence course (for women or whoever) that IS worth doing?
    Or is ongoing and regular training (with resistance and pressure testing/sparring, etc) the only thing that is truly worth the time?
    If a short course is viable what would the format be and what would the course include? For how long? What's the shortest time you could run a course for and still get some good information and skills across?
  13. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I'm by far one of the least qualified people to answer this, but I'm bored so.

    Ultimately, I think its bordering impossible to do anything worthwhile in terms of physical skills. They need to be repeated and drilled, preferable with a break between them, to make them instinctual in my opinion. I'm an okay grappler, but if you show me something that's a variant on what I already know I'll still need to practice it to make it instinctual under pressure at a competition, and that's taking someone already experienced with the movements, already experienced with competition pressure, and teaching something to be used under a stressful situation, but no where near the stress level of a 'street' encounter, as it were. Take a bunch of normal people with no or minimal experience or exposure to fighting and I just don't think its possible. Not for someone like me anyway, but I'm a very timid, unconfident person who's essentially a coward, but I'm using myself as a metric for the average lower middle class person who hasn't really ever been exposed to violence.

    It might be possible to teach some small things I guess, like where to aim or if there was something reasonably instinctive but perhaps wouldn't be thought of. So for grappling, a butterfly sweep might be an example because its literally just hooking a foot under someone and tilting them and it works wonders on people with no grappling experience. Or a very basic principle like stiff arming instead of using a bent arm, or if you want to stand up you need to keep someones head below yours. But even then, I wouldn't really bother. Although, again, not the best person to give an answer.

    What I do think would be worthwhile, would pretty much just be pressure scenarios. Not really to teach anyone anything per se, but just to give people an exposure to what real violence looks like, and most importantly, to give them an exposure to the adrenaline dump it brings on. I haven't done much self defence stuff, but by far the greatest lesson I've learnt from what I have done has just been that adrenaline and how little you can think. Showing people that, and making them realise that all the planning and all the "oh I could just do X and Y" comes to absolutely chuff all under adrenaline and stress unless its drilled into a reaction.

    Honestly, I think that's the most useful thing you could do with a short course.
    David Harrison likes this.
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What might be the most effective use of time in a SD course and what people want to pay money to do might not be one and the same.

    See the quote about "I feel empowered" - my guess is that people want the same feel good vibe of invincibility that martial arts without pressure testing give people. Very few people want to pay for a dose of reality.

    This feeds perfectly into the ego of instructors. Who wants to be stood next a white board talking about awareness and safety when they can demonstrate smacking the poop out of a compliant assistant and have a hall full of women think they're Jason Bourne?
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Good instructors can take someone's natural reactions and quite quickly refine them to be more effective.
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    A very salient point. A sad point but what people want and what people need can be two different things entirely.

    The thing is though I think adrenal exposure and pressure testing should be progressive and ongoing. Something training builds up to rather than something you are pitched into right away. As someone that got into martial arts because of fear and confidence issues I know I would have run a mile if I had to do scenarios and pressure testing early on. You could have people seeking self defence skills that have already been victims of crime and making them adrenalised could be utterly counterproductive and ultimately put them off if not very sensitively handled.

    It seems to me we have a bit of an all or nothing response to self defence training. You're either doing it right (whatever that may be) or it's not worth doing it all.

    Why does it have to be like that?

    In some ways I see it like drowning. There are steps, advice, information and training people can do to avoid drowning.
    But you don't have to become the next Micheal Phelps or jump straight in the ocean or even the deep end of the pool.
    Learning basic safety around water, being switched on and aware and being able to doggy paddle in a pool is better than nothing.

    What's the SD equivalent to that sort of level? And can it be taught in a short time?

    Personally in a short SD course I'd cover stuff like aspects of awareness, confidence, target hardening, body language, adrenalin (how it manifests in attacker and victim rather than adrenal exposure per se), the law and what it allows and mindset. Stuff like that. I'd make sure that at the end everyone had the basic idea of the fence, deceptive dialogue, action triggers, pre-emptive striking and a pre-emptive strike they can make their own. They will have used that strike on pads with aggression and attitude in simple drills and scenarios.
    Basic building blocks of a simple self defence strategic structure in essence.

    I'd also make sure I provided links to further information and help that a short course can't cover. Things like info on the Suzi Lamplugh trust, Rape crisis and abuse helplines, how to spot an abusive relationship, sources of good information (Geoff Thompson, Lee Morrison, Iain Abernethy, Government and Legal links etc).
  17. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    For what it's worth, chatted with my girlfriend about this and got my head bitten off for having a, as you say Smitfire, an all or nothing approach to it.

    For her part, and just to add a woman's opinion in here, she said when she's attended women's self defence courses they've been very upfront about the fact its a half day course and it doesn't mean much. For her, the point is to build on confidence, it seems pretty much to the exclusion of most other things. Teaching effective techniques isn't really a priority for her, and she feels its a hangover from men designing these courses where male self defence is likely to be a lot more about fights and 'square gos' as it were. I was also quite firmly told that my thoughts about pressure testing and adrenal experience wouldn't work since they'd just put women off attending.

    What that left us with what specifically she would teach we didn't really get into, but the takeaway from me was that it she sees the priority being about instilling confidence and letting women know something and having some form of exposure to things like, say, having their back pressed to a wall which is something that may well not have happened to any of them before. She was under no illusions that you could teach anyone to actually fight in a short course, but also thinks its a misplaced concept in women's defence.

    We did also agree that situational awareness seemed a bit of a waste of time, in the grand scheme, since a lot of women seem to take that into account anyway so it would be less of a focus for women than it would be in a men's class, where men tend to want to learn how to fight and don't really ever consider that avoidance part, whereas stereo-typically women do the opposite in daily life.

    Not sure what really the point of this is, it doesn't answer your question in any specifics, and I'm still pondering it, but there is a lack of female input into a subject about women's self defence, so I figured it was worth adding a little.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That's a very good point I'd not really thought about before. I mean...it's obvious now you point it out...and I try to be aware of what women go through (as far as I can) but I could see it being really patronising for an instructor to say "try to be aware of dodgy people in your vicinity"....and a woman thinking "yeah...I already do that all day every day?".

    Although...I'm also sure many people (inc. women) think they are aware when they aren't or aren't aware of things they should be.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Oh and another thing...

    who dat?
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  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Building confidence in what though, her ability to defend herself, her ability to read a situation? Does it make someone confident to say no and fight back, to resist just enough to enrage the attacker?

    It was my partner who broad this to my attention and she just thought it and other courses are nonsense because they neither give real skills or abilities and are at best misguided and at worst money making schemes.

    I honestly think nothing is better than these courses as most women are already as you say somewhat aware of their surroundings and I'd honestly prefer them to be freighted and do as they are told than try something that might escalate the situation

    Now if we are talking about a commited physical sexual assault then that's different but no short term course will help with that I'm sad to say, I'd rather they carried and trained to use a weapon of that was a serious concern.
    SWC Sifu Ben likes this.

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