i asked Sifu this and...

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by surrealism, Sep 13, 2009.

  1. surrealism

    surrealism trying to fit in

    I asked my Sifu why kung fu people don't do UFC related fights. He said cause they don't want to. I wonder why this is. Are they afraid, is kung fu too narrow [fighting techniques] where MMA fighters are more well rounded.

    why is it we don't see a tai chi practitioner in the octogon? or why not a Wing Chunner? If these are supposed to be fighting martial arts and have the ability to defend your self why not try it out in the UFC?

    or is it i am just not enlightened and if i was i would not care about about fighting?

    your thoughts please :)
     
  2. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Someone doesn't need an ulterior motive to say "I'm not interested in trying to make it into the UFC."

    And maybe CMA practitioners who are so inclined are all focusing on Sanshou?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcnT3Mx-ZTU"]YouTube - 2003 Sanshou World Cup Highlight[/ame]
     
  3. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    "Gasp"
    Th-That was Awesome :)
    Cheers Mitlov
     
  4. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    Because they would lose, and deep down inside most of them know it.
     
  5. surrealism

    surrealism trying to fit in

    okay but why would they lose?
     
  6. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Is this a troll thread or an honest question?

    The majority of classical CMA schools have a very narrow focus with regards to what they train.

    MMA events (which are a sport) have a rule set which allows for a wider range of skills to be applied.

    Star Trek analogy moment: It's like only practicing penalty shoot outs (and in some cases even without a Goalie), do you think that with this one skill you could go and be 'sucessful' in a game of Football (Soccer to the yanks ;) )?

    No you couldn't. Does this mean that your skill is useless? No, you just don't have the complete game.

    People practice MA for a variety of reasons, the major ones being:

    1. Self Defence (or the ability to fight 'in t3h 5tr33t')
    2. Competition (this is a sport, but tends to be more realistic than (1))
    3. Fitness (this IMHO is a flawed idea)
    4. To immerse themselves in a foreign 'warrior culture'

    So long as you are honest with your reasons (and as an instructor are honest with your students with what you are giving them) they there is no problem. Unfortunately there are a lot of instructors who claim to teach (1), but actually teach a pseudo BS version of (4). Deep down these jackass instructors know that what they are teaching is limited and wouldn't stand the test of the sports environment. The reasons for them trying to disguise this fact can be varied, but mostly boil down to one of two reasons:

    1. They have invested so much time for their life before they made this realisation (probably because their instructor was a jackass too) that they don't want to admitt that a lot of it was wasted effort towards their perceived goal.

    2. They have a financial investment in their students.

    So why don't we see many CMA guys in the UFC? Well, you see a lot of guys who started off in CMAs in the UFC, they have just added additional skills that are not part of the majority of CMAs. So why don't they call themselves Kung Fu guys when they fight? Because frankly it would be a joke, they are no longer solely 'CMA guys'.
     
  7. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Also I should add that I have competed in, and have big respect for, Sanshou.

    Also I have trained in, and still play with, Wing Chun. I believe that chi sau skills have an important part to play in GnP and clinch entry/splits. Whilst lots of CMA instructors claim this relavence, few actually are able to understand how to apply it, let alone teach it in a 'real' fashion.
     
  8. SpikeD

    SpikeD At the Frankenstein Place

    That is a little like saying 'why don't students stop studying a get a job? Because they are lazy and deep down they know it'.
    Did you not see the vid mitlov posted? Do those guys look like they would be afraid to lose? The difference between CMA and UFC is huge but that does not mean that the reason you do not see a specialised CMA or JMA/KMA practitioner in the UFC is because they would lose. If that's the case why don't we see special forces guys in the octagon, are they likely to lose. If they are it is because they don't train to make some one tap out but rather to go down and stay down. It's hard to translate that in to a sport without accidental deaths week in and week out. I am not saying that BJJ and such like are not transferable to war or street situations but taking your man out fast and staying upright is always preferable to 'taking it to the mat' in a real life situation. Being able to defend yourself if you end up down on the ground is definately needed but not the be-all and end-all of MA.
     
  9. surrealism

    surrealism trying to fit in

    honest question. When my Sifu said it it sounded more like the CMA's are more legit then the guys in MMA. But he did not say it with a haughty tone.

    I was just curious as to find out why you did not see some guy enter the ring and stand pigeon toe and do Sil Im Tau.

    and i am not picking on the Wing Chun practitioners it's just the only other martial art that i am familiar with.

    i guess my thinking is that in a fight you're going to do forms and that is not the best way to think.
     
  10. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    There's a self selection bias. People who want to do MMA train in MMA. People who want to do kung fu train in kung fu. The reason KFers don't enter MMA comps is the same reason people who've only done MMA don't enter KF comps. It's not what they're interested in and they'd get beaten by people who trained for the specific activity.
     
  11. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Also remember that MMA is in vogue at the moment. When it drops out of fashion and something else takes its place, we'll still be asking the same question, just about a different subject
     
  12. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    Mainly lack of interest.... like others have said.

    It's really only the MMA and the inherint styles that is involved in MMA that care about MMA.

    I mean I respect it and hope to train and possibly compete in it within the next couple of years.

    But as someone who currently trains in Wing Tsjun with some cross-over training in Muay Thai, Judo and soon Hung ga....

    Do I, as a martial artist really care about the UFC?.... no..... What about the majority of other MA's outside what is commonly seen in UFC?... No they probably don't care either.

    In fact, I'm willing to bet their is a good part of the MA community which practises it's style without even having the briefist consideration (or even udnerstanding) of what the UFC is and/or does.
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    MMA is in vogue at the moment. When it drops out of fashion and something else takes its place

    Do you know I don't think that's likely to happen. It's to entrenched now. It has become the barometer by which other fighting sports are judged. The cat is out of the bag and you aren't going to get it back in now.
     
  14. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Bits of me agree with you, but other bits make me think other fighting sports could easily come in to the ascendency. We have to remember as it stands the UFC is the org synonymous with MMA, and as far as I'm aware it's only sanctioned in a number of US states and in the UK.

    K-1 type organisations I think could easily make a come back, and maybe even single style full contact comps. We will have to wait and see. Less than full contact will never be as big as full contact because it's not a crowd pleaser - simple as.
     
  15. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    While I agree that MMA has brought a reality check to the way we train.

    I find the sentiments you expressed, to be somewhat, naive.
     
  16. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Why is that going to happen? What makes MMA a fad? Formula 1 has been the most popular form of motosport for a long time, no sign of that changing anytime soon(internal politics aside!) Football is the most popular form of sport that involves playing with a ball and its been that way for a long time and will probably always be very popular.

    Isn't it more likely, given just how HUGE and genuinely mainstream it has got in the States, and the surge in popularity in many others countries, that MMA is a sport that is here to stay?

    People sometimes talk about MMA being the latest 'fad', and often compare it to the semi contact and kickboxing boom in the 70's-80's. But MMA is far bigger than they ever were, in the US Chuck Liddel is appearing on Dancing on Ice, thats mainstream exposure far beyond what any other martial artist has ever achieved, film stars aside.

    Personally I think MMA will be huge in 50 years from now :)
     
  17. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member


    We've also had huge changes in the way we market and the size of martial arts scene within the western world and massive imporvements in communication technology.

    It's only natural to assume that thier will be a large fan base for something so heavily publicised.

    MMA is in a boom right now, and to the general public it appeals to 20 something young men, who are watching for the image of manly men doing manly stuff like fighting. These people don't really have much time for the technical aspect, outside of recognising joint locks and a couple of other assorted basics. Once MMA has been around for a while it's "brutal/manly" novelty will probably fall away and the people who stay will be the ones interested in the technique and the skilled aspects. The masses of manly man fans wil; look to something like K1 or boxing to watch something which may be less "full on" but to the spectator more exciting.

    MMA's novelty will wear off it's boom will die and it will most definatly continue as a part of martial arts culture, just not as centrally as it's egotistical promoters would like to think.
     
  18. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Only in certain countries. Compare the numbers for NASCAR to F-1 in the States. NASCAR crushes it.

    And you think that's never going to change? Baseball is the most popular ball sport in Japan. American football is the most popular in the States; followed by basketball and baseball; "soccer" (as we call football) doesn't even compare.

    If NASCAR isn't catching on outside of the States, I'm not sure it's a guarantee that UFC-style MMA would. I doubt UFC-rules MMA will ever overshadow Sanshou in China, for example.

    ...you know that Layla Ali has appeared on Dancing with the Stars, a show ten times as big as Dancing on Ice, right?

    Maybe, maybe not. Fifty years ago, nobody would ever have guessed that professional boxing would have been overshadowed.

    Basically, the "unquestionable truths" about the popularity of sports which you have asserted are all, in fact, questionable and continually changing.
     
  19. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    Nobody in the Octagon is practicing a traditional Oriental art. Not tai chi, not tae kwon do, not karate, not kung fu....
    You sound like a troll.

    MMA is a hybrid skillset with hybrid practices. Add to that: The profile for a pro in the Octagon is specific, and those guys are badasses. They're young men with a physical and emotional talent for aggression. They're at their physical peak, and engaged in a pure, testosterone drenched meritocracy.

    Top level performers are training for different reasons and for different rewards than most humans, and their window is tight, nobody stays on top for more than a few years.

    I repeat: Nobody's coming from or training in traditional anything. They're training to fight other muscular young men in front of cheering crowds, with a referee and a ruleset, and hopefully for lots of money and glory.

    If I'm going to go run two miles, I'm not pitting myself against the guy who wins the Boston Marathon.

    If I do Tai Chi in my backyard, or hit the bag in my garage, or go to a Tae Kwon Do or Shaolin class with my kids twice a week, I'm aiming at physical competence, and/or many other intangibles. I'm not aiming at the Octagon.

    Punch is punch, kick is kick, lock is lock and throw is throw.

    Practice is practice, sweat is sweat, time is time.


    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2009
  20. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop


    Fair enough, sports rise and fall in popularity but the big mainstream ones, football/soccer, F1, rugby/American Football are here to stay. Their popularity may dip and they may not be as popular in some countries as in others but none of them could ever be described as a 'fad'.

    What I am saying is that MMA is taking its place alongside them as a legitimately mainstream sport in a way that no other combat sport done in the past has apart from boxing.

    Another thing about MMA that I think is/wil help it become popular worldwide, and this stops the other sport analagy being a good one, is the fact that it the most complete of combat sports. Thai boxers, wrestlers, san da guys, BJJers, Judokas, boxers, TKDers, Karatekas can all use their skills in the MMA arena. MMA is the ultimate proving ground.

    I'm not saying that other combat sports will die out, hopefully MMAs success will give them a boost if anything, what I am saying is that MMA will be as popular as boxing was during its golden age.
     

Share This Page