"I always thought that fencing only focused on games and not traditional weapons"

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Mitlov, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Not at all as straight forward outcome as you might imagine. The sports fencer has a more closely related skillset but a fight like that would come down to courage more than skill. Neither has had the required training to stand in the face of a killing blow. I can assure you it takes alot more than trying to "poke" someone with a sword to survive a duel. I have fought several hundred non competitive duels many of which without armour and some with semi-sharp swords. I can assure you that it is a completely different experience from when you are armoured and wearing a fencing mask. Also you put down the abilities of a dancer, the skillset of a dancer is frankly amazing. Indeed one of the famous fencing masters (name escapes me, kirk, help!) said, "show me a man who cannot dance and I will show you a man who cannot fight". Indeed I have found it easier to train dancers in MA than modern fencers.

    I don't understand why you feel the need to class modern fencing as a martial art. There is no shame in being a sportsman. It's generally alot more enjoyable experience. I always tell my students that if they are enjoying training as it is happening then they aren't doing it correctly. Martial Arts training is something you look back on fondly while at the time it is a mixture of constant pain and fear.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
  2. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I think bear it talking about ai uchi..that is the moment where you face each other and if both strike simultanrously both may be struck.

    Often you shall see a novice "shake" or become uncertain.

    Other techniques often come into question..such as leaving an opening to draw an attack which you shall "counter".

    This gives the initiative to the opponent who if he is a strong fighter shall indeed take it but in such a manner that he shall stike continuously and directly through you.

    All martial arts should develope fighting spirit and be executed outside of the comfort zone. AI UCHI is most definately out of the comfort zone of anyone lacking fighting spirit and nerve.
     
  3. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    There's no way to REALLY prepare for the psychology of a life-or-death situation until you're there. No matter what, it'll be terrifying. But when people are terrified, they fall back on their training. Jeannet has trained day-in-day-out for years to touch without being touched (and how to do so); I just don't see that evaporating from his instincts if you take the blunt tips and the masks away.

    Modern boxers don't train to punch bare-knuckled. They don't train to fight armed home invaders in the middle of the night. Yet when this 72-year-old former boxer discovered a knife-wielding burglar in his house in the middle of the night, what happened? He fell back on his sport training and prevailed.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...face-burglar-got-wrong-72-year-old-boxer.html

    With just a couple minutes on Google, I could find a dozen examples like this where boxers, wrestlers, etc fall back on their training in unexpected life-threatening situations. I fail to see why the same principles wouldn't hold true if Jeannet had to swap his FIE-regulation epee for a sharp-tipped epee.

    Because I care about words. Just ask Slip sometime :hat:

    But I've got a question. In a semantics debate, the problem with advancing the "I don't see why you care" argument is that it works just as well in the other way. Why do you feel the need to exclude all martial sports from "martial arts"? There's a healthy MMA community here, as well as some boxers and Muay Thai guys and competitive Taekwondoin and Judoka and the like...all at a site called Martial Arts Planet. Why do you feel the need to exclude all of them from the definition of "martial arts"?
     
  4. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Ambushes have been used in warfare for millenia, with anything from a few lives at risk to tens of thousands of lives at risk if they don't work. Just because something is a high-risk-high-reward tactic doesn't mean people never use it in life-or-death situations. As just one example, during the Vietnam War, OH-6 Cayuse helicopters would be used to bait concealed NVA and Viet Cong forces into opening fire, at which time an AH-1 Cobra would spring the trap and respond with overwhelming firepower. Risky move by the Cayuse pilots, but high reward if it worked.

    On the other side, Iraqi ground forces ambushed a large number of AH-64 Apaches by pretending to be a small armor force, drawing in a flight of about 30 Apaches if I recall correctly, and then responding with large numbers of concealed AAA. I forget how many AH-64s we lost, but I think it was the largest number of AH-64s ever damaged or shot down at one time in the history of the aircraft.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Well then you have denied every military training doctrine.


    I don't exclude them, I just accept they have different direction in training. I don't do what they do, that is all. I don't say that martial sports or sports are inferior to what I do, we just do a different thing. I couldn't survive in a MMA ring, I couldn't win a sports fencing match but I can fight.

    The Bear.
     
  6. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Mitlov

    I was speaking of one on one encounters and in particular about facing an experienced fighter.

    I would already be looking for any openings an opponent may have..if he "gives" me one I shall be attacking it as it appears.

    I would not be attempting to engage him in a "competition" and I shall state that I believe any good competitor when in a self defence situation shall go through his attacker in the same manner.

    Perhaps it is the attitude that bear speaks of.

    My thought is if you strike the hardest and first then you are the one to walk away.
     
  7. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I haven't been in the military. But I would expect that most people in the military would agree that (1) training with live ammo and the like may reduce the terror that people will experience the first time they enter battle, but nothing will eliminate it, and (2) the more terrified people are, the more they fall back on whatever they've trained to the point of instinct.

    Neither principle is inconsistent with "there's no way to REALLY prepare for the psychology of a life-or-death situation until you're there," at least how I meant "REALLY prepare" in the context I wrote it. In the context of what I said, I meant that anyone is going to be terrified the first time they face a sharp blade, even if people who have worked their way up with semi-sharp blades and the like might be less terrified (and thus would retain more of their strategy, more of their sophisticated game, etc.). And people who are scared fall back first and foremost on whatever has been trained to the level of instinct. In Jeannet's case, that would include parries, thrusts, lunges, and distancing. In a dancer's case, I have no idea what that would be, but it sure wouldn't be effective bladework.

    I didn't say that you said they were inferior. I said that you excluded them from the definition of "martial arts." And it's true that you don't include them in the definition of martial arts. That's a different issue from disparaging them.

    I asked why you care whether they're included in the definition, because you asked why I care if they're excluded from the definition.
     
  8. emaaoz

    emaaoz Valued Member

    @slipthejab We just want the award the Ninja guys have...
     
  9. emaaoz

    emaaoz Valued Member

    Interestingly that is pretty much the opposite of what I teach. But that's probably a topic for its own thread...
     
  10. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    World-class competitive fencers are used to fencing other world-class fencers. They don't need to create openings against novices because novices already have openings.

    There's not going to be a single opening when you face a world-class fencer who is just waiting for you to make a move. The only way to find an opening to attack is to make one.

    Epees are a very defense-friendly weapon. If you don't make an opening before you attack, you're the one to get hit, no matter how hard you strike.

    +1
     
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Depends on the era and weapon.

    German Longsword is approached in exactly that way.

    British broadsword/backsword varies, Silver is no, Highland regimental system yes.

    Once you are into dueling styles like small sword, epee, rapier etc this is a different game entirely. The swords role on the battlefield is much reduced so you get a shift in emphasis from offence to defence. The civilian duellist has time to spend picking holes where the battlefield soldier does not.

    Though in truth it isn't that simple, attacks in German longsword are also defensive and defences in silver backsword also threaten. However, you see a noticable transition throughout the renaissance period.

    The Bear.
     
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    The aikis ken as taught by Saito shihan is to allow students to study sword principles that shall enhance their unarmed combat.

    The main principle is to "Attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit than the opponent and destroy his will to continue."

    Most difficult to do in a competative manner and suicidal against a more advanced practisioner. However the teaching is to empower you in a self defence situation. Where the opportunity to "engage" an unsolicitated attack is almost zero. Hence the get off line and mount a fully fledged continuous attack with little thought of defence.

    ALL of the "counters" such as avoiding supressing even blocking must also carry the attack without pause, Hence the saying attack at all times.hence the preferance for pre-emptive striking.

    This is my approach and in no ways suggests that it is the only or most effective approach,simply the one that suits my attitude best.
     
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Yeah, I find this approach perfect for the longsword. However, not with the backsword. Curiously, the change in-line body mechanics alters something and the "always attack" just doesn't seem to work the same. I learned this the hard way with many a bruised ribs.

    The Bear.
     
  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    If you consider that ALL attacks should carry the defence..I E along the line of attack and all defences should carry attacks...etc Does body alignment still leave you vulnerable?

    Again I am speaking of it's merit in self defence.
     
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    The problem is that you attack in moulinets not straight cuts like longsword or katana. The sword moves in arcs and the basket of the sword protect the arm and the hand while the body is behind the sword. Most of the attacks are focussed towards to wrist for a disabling cut followed by a killing thrust or cut. The system is damned fast and you usually have to use a few feints to draw your opponent out otherwise there is usually no opening to exploit.
    It is a fascinating system. It is interesting but you even see the language change from the "noble or manly arts" to the "Science of Defence".

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
  16. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    This strategy works pretty well in modern sabre, and I definitely agree with it from an empty-handed perspective. It's just that, specifically with epee, it simply doesn't work.
     
  17. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I think it is because some of the posters here have different REASONS for training in swordwork.

    Example emaaoz has posted that his approach is the exact opposite to mine.

    Does NOT mean that either of us is WRONG.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
  18. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I never said you were "WRONG" or anything like it. I said that the strategy was incompatible with this particular weapon. And it is, for any purpose, not just competition.

    You use this strategy with a weapon to teach someone to attack like that in all circumstances, weapon or otherwise. I understand that. But it wouldn't be a very effective training drill, though, if with the particular weapon you used, you got your butt handed to you every single time you attacked like that, right? I'm not saying you're wrong or anything like that. I'm saying that epee is atypical of most styles of combat in that that strategy never pays off well, regardless of your reasons for training in swordwork. You'd never use that strategy in an epee competition because you'd lose; you'd never use that strategy as a training tool for other contexts because it would teach the lesson that attacking first and most aggressively will land you on your butt.
     
  19. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Your post just about proves what I was saying in my previous post.

    First of all I did not say that you or anyone had said I was wrong simply pointing out the different reasons for training shall show the reasons for the different approaches.

    We use the sempai kohai system wherein the beginner is encouraged to attack the more experienced student and NOTHING but a proper technique shall be allowed through even though the sempai COULD have countered it. This is simply to develop the fighting spirit of the student as he becomes more proficiant the sempai shall again make it more difficult to execute the technique.

    Our emphasis is not to build techniques to win in competition but to build fighting spirit that can be used in the hand techniques. If students are interested in competition they ARE encouraged to crosstrain.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
  20. Martial novice

    Martial novice Valued Member

    Really interesting thread from the point of view of an eskrimador (especially a tall lanky one who's often thought about taking up fencing when time and money allows).

    Just wanted to chip in two things that caught my eye.

    First - in epee you say that strikes to the hand being allowed links it more to first blood duels. In FMA, we are often taught to strike the hand first - defanging the snake - if blade you disarm them and cut them, with stick you injure and maybe disarm. This goes back to full on fighting where the intention may be death - so as a tactic, the hand strike is as much a route to a kill as it is just first blood.

    Second thing - you mentioned about grappling being limited with a foil because it is only sharp at the tip. I have no idea about the flexibility, but with unsharp sticks, we certainly get to grapple - stick/grappling or escrido makes use of the weapon for leverage etc. Obviously not allowed in competition, but an interesting sidenote I thought. No? ok, sorry to intrude, I'll go back to my sub-forum...
     

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