Are you kidding? Every time an article by an ex-member is posted to counter the claims made by Joo Bang Lee you talk about how they were found guilty of some evil dead after they left Hwarang-do. Here is proof of your actions. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=487941#post487941 You come out swinging against someone in the above post to try to get people to ignore the facts that had been laid out. Now you are trying to say that we should all be above such pettiness when facts are laid out against the founder of your art. And you keep asking me if I was there when all these guys left. Were you? You are quite content to accuse and slander them, but when someone points out that the things you do are cult like behavior you demand that someone talk to Joo Bang Lee, train in the art, be there at every point in history, etc. Have you ever talked with the many members who left the cult and were then accused of crimes? Were you there when they left? Can you confirm the story of how Joo Bang Lee supposably learned an art with ties to the ancient Hwarang from an old monk? And one final thing, can you deal with facts and logic instead of relying on charecter assasination and slander?
Yep I'll second that! Face it if you Hwarang-do guys/gals want to shut Grim up the best way of doing it would be by proving him wrong and answering the questions that have been asked and providing proof. Do you agree? With all these attempts at turning the questions back at those asking them you are just doing yourself damage! A few things I've noticed during my time on Fourms: 1) People with something to hide will not answer direct questions about claims they have made. 2) A common tatic by frauds and trolls is to criticize the critics and use various character assasination techniques! 3) Another one I'm seeing more of late is the threat of legal action against those who question claims. Now to me this is very worrying if you are on the level why is there a need to threaten someone with legal action? Why not just provide proof? So going on this how about someone makes an attempt at adressing the various questions about Hwarang-do and show some independant proof to backup the claims made by those in the art. It should be easy don't you all agree? At the moment what we have here is failure to comunicate the easiest and quickest way to resolve this not to mention one that would let the Hwaran-do folks walk off with a very smug expression on thier faces would be to blow the questions out of the water with solid proof. Deal with the facts and not those asking about them! Grim has asked for cold facts yeah? So lets stay there and not get going all emotional. Anyway I don't think it works with Grim it's not part of his creed so to speak I feel "Compassion is not a Grimjack word"
Boy that msg came relatively quick right after Grinjack's Nah, I don't want to shut him up... Sure, he's kind of an annoying character, like a sqeaky mouse -- but he's harmless and adds some fun to things in a way. But what is he asking besides proof of someone who is deceased? Does he want Jungdo to fax him a copy of a notorized birth certificate with picture ID? Who cares? Why does HRD threaten him so much? --Please spare the "I'm a valiant knight with the lifelong righteous mission of purifying historical inaccuracies so I go on forums to do battle!" bologna. HAHAHA! He can keep asking and asking and asking if it boosts his ego, I suppose. But why the ego... You guys with all your forum experience, sheesh! How about this: "Get off the forums. Train hard." Life is short! Want to learn about Hwarangdo. Go to www.hwarangdo.com
Lusanti has a point there is way to much ego going on here. And the sad thing is these are supposed to be martial artists. LOL And grim (cute name) How is it that you are one of us and are the only one that likes to start trouble with this forum. I have seen this jungdo kid go on there and be nothing but cool with us on our side. So whats the deal man. You are make us all look bad with this stuff.
That would be a nice start. Joo Bang Lee is still alive. Anyone alive who is legitimate can show proof of their personal training history. But people like Ashida Kim can't. Ashida Kim claims to be taught by a guy named Shendai and Joo Bang Lee claims to be taught by a monk in the arts used by the ancient Hwarang warriors. Neither can show proof of something that everyone else can. Another thing to show proof of is the proof behind the accusations made against several ex-members. You accuse someone in public, it is your responsibility to back up those accusations. This is what Jugso has said about someone else. So now he needs to show proof that the accused "under mind his female students" and the other charges. For that matter, take a look at the link he gives. There are several ex-members who have been accused of crimes and supposably convicted in a special court. Obviously the accused were not there to defend themselves and no evidence of the accusations are given for others to see. It is slander and sliming of those that disagree with the grandmaster pure and simple. Are secret courts that try ex-members part of a decent martial art or a cult? So if you want to stop me from pointing out that Hwarang-do is a cult, show the evidence for the crimes the ex-members were convicted of in that kangaroo court.
I been here only for a while, but you show me no credabilty. what training history? In korea at that time I dont think so? Hey I am NOT aggreeing with it either please understand but you are saying stupid things is all I am saying. I belieive really that the other person lusant is a truthful person and was there to know about your accusation and said it was not fair to talk about what really was done? So why keep asking for detail? I dont want to hear detail about whatever your teacher(?) did to get expelled. But you keep ask for stupid things and say stupid things. Are you young? Please stop. Sorry. I came to find out more info away from there website, so I came here for a different idea. But you keep wasting time. I think you are young, so I understand. I was that way too and liked to argue for fun about everything. But try to be polite. Thanks.
Many years ago I only wanted sport. But i think it really is what Ive been looking for. Too much jumping around in arts is no good anymore. Also I like kuksulwon i think as I learn more. But for now I have nothing here and may move anyway. No offense but I dont care much for ancient history or know if I believe it all yet. But I think you are honest and thank you for good information.
I guess you should pay attention a bit more instead of just blindly defending the Hwarang-do guys. I am not a student, nor have I ever been a student of anything related to Hwarang-do. I have met Joo Bang Lee and talked with him. I know people who are in orginizations that have left the group because of the tactics and practices it takes. And when someone slanders someone else in public like they have, it does not matter if it impacts me or not. The right thing to do is to point out the injustice. Joo Bang Lee can't show any more proof for his teacher than Ashida Kim can. There are guys his age than can show proof of their teachers. Joo Bang Lee can't even seem to prove that! We are not talking about something that happened in the 14th century, we are talking about the mid 20th century. Noone else every knew this guy existed and taught an art related to the ancient Hwarang? Come on! Ashida Kim's explination sounds more realistic!
Quick? The time is 20 mins after Grim posted? Can’t see what you’re getting at? Is that because it would involve addressing some of the issues he has raised? Only if you can’t answer what he is asking How about some independent verification? Matt is previous post has said that even Korean historians contest some of the things claimed by the HRD crowd? Why as others have said can’t the head guy of HWD prove that he was taught by this monk? Ok so I ask questions and your response is an attempt at attacking my credibility? How do you know I don’t train hard? Oh and FYI I work in the IT industry so I spend a fair bit of time on the net. I will do but I will also be looking at other sources to cross reference what is stated there as that site can hardly been seen as being non biased and independent can it? Yet again it seems no one can provide answers to the questions asked. The only recourse you seem to have is to turn on those who are enquiring about HRD. Now why is that? I came on to this thread not having much of an opinion either way about HRD however after this I will admit I can see where Grim is coming from.
Why does Grim need credibility to ask questions about the origins of an art? Would not a prospective student who knew nothing about MA or HRD be doing the same? And would not the same student be concerned when hearing the various bad things about HRD and so in turn go looking for other sources to confirm or deny these things? What stupid things has Grim said? Why should Grim remain polite when all that has happened is that people have made attacks on his character instead of addressing the questions? How is Grim wasting time by raising issues with some things associated with HRD? You said you’ve come on here for a different opinion other than what you find on the HRD site well good for you IMHO that’s just what you should do but don’t moan at those whose opinions you don’t like if you are not going to listen to a different view then why come on here?
Please elaborate on that? Why is there too much ego? Are you referring to GrimJack who is asking about HWD and trying to get some clarification on aspects of the art egotistical? Exactly so there should be no problem with answering any questions about the art should there? At the end of the day all he has done is ask for verification for some of the things claimed by the HRD crowd now the only way trouble can arise from that is if the individuals in question will not or cannot answer the questions asked as so turn on those asking the questions which is something that we have seen a few times now in this thread. I’ve asked to be pointed in the direction of independent proof and the first response I got contained an immediate attack on my dedication to training and my credibility now do you really think that is the right way to go about things?
spook it is the way that he is going about in sort of like a childish manner. It is kind of baiting them. Plus haven't you all heard the term. Just because you ask dosn't mean your going to get.
So if a prospective student wanted to ask questions about various concern some people have with HRD then they shouldn't expect to get an answer? Sorry but that's pretty daft don't you think? Again I will ask what is the difficulty with answering some of the concerns about HRD? Why does there seem to be the attitude, as seen in this thread, of if someone asks we'll just run them down and try to discredit them? If everything is on the level then why should there be such a problem with addressing these concerns? Surely the most expedient manner in which to deal with this would be to just shut HRDs detractors up by proving them wrong? Instead all people are doing is focusing on what a mean and nasty guy Grimjak is.
Im sorry I am not familiar with going around forum and did not see any, but is there a kuksulwon specific section? Also a good website you recommend for info. thank you.
I will explain why don't just help you all out on this one. Although I have spoken with some of the x-hwarangdo members. And I know why. I was ask not to speak about it from them. And I feel that it is in respect for both parties. That I do not act like a kid about things. I am sorry if this is not the answer you would like but, it is the truth. I would also like to think that we as martial artist, we could get past petty little things such as this. You can think what ever you want about me or the art. That is your call. But in the grand plan of things. Questions like these and forums have very little meaning in the end. Am I right. I have spoke my peace on this I hope this helps if not, I am sorry. But life will go on with out knowing everything.
That’s fair enough with regards to the EX-HRD members but why couldn’t you have said that in the first place? Why would it not be what I want to hear? If that’s your reason for not answering questions about some of the things the former members of your art have said then ok but it still doesn’t address the other concerns raised about HRD? What things like claims about lineage that haven’t been proven? Do you regard them as petty? If I was to say I’d trained under the only living Koga Ninja Grandmaster and that I am sole heir to his school why should you except that what I say is true? I could be a better Martial Artist than Hatsumi Soke, O’Sensei Ueshiba and all the Gracie’s put together but that wouldn’t make my claim anymore true would it! Especially if I couldn’t give you any proof of this teacher and other people knowledgeable in the field couldn’t verify what I say or produced claims to the contrary . Questions are very rarely meaningless ! They have great meaning if they question a belief. Again if you look at this from the perspective of someone who doesn’t know anything about Martial Arts then why should they believe some of the claims associated with HRD? If there isn’t anyone outside the HRD crowd to confirm things or there is no solid proof to provide backup? If I go to my Systema instructor and ask him to provide proof that he is certified by Vlad or Mikhail then he can do it. In fact he brings his certs to class each week just in case a new guy asks just that. I can go further if I wish and ask other instructors about him and they will be able to verify that what he says is true. I can do the same with my Bujinkan teacher. Can the same be said for the historical and lineage claims of HRD? That’s a genuine question I’m not having a dig.
I guess the point that I am trying to make is that. History is important in only one area of martial arts. It is important to know where you come from. However lets just say I going to fight you. And I am kicking your butt. Is history really that important at that moment. NO it is not. But people get so caught up in it, it is crazy. It is like they have no life out side of these forums. And it seems like they spend more time on here worring about some guys history. And not so much about there own lives and training. And no I do not take everything that everyone has said as the gospel. No one should, for that matter. It just got to me that people have made claims about an art that they have never been in. I can also say that "IF" hwa rang do is a cult. Well then in most cults that I have seen it is all about the head person. And through hwa rang do I have become better than I have ever been. I have a 4.0 and A Assoc. Degree in computers and robotics. And I am going back too get a degree in computer networking. And with out hwa rang do I would not be the person I am today. Sure I like picking on grimjack. Its fun. But hwa rang do ask of you to push yourself to your most outer limits to see what you really can do. Which I am sure bujinkan does as well. And as far as the cirts go. Back in the old days of training. It was who you trainned with not a peice of paper that mattered. But if that peice of paper is that important to everyone (which is kind of sad) I can print a peice of paper on my computer. And it has really about the same meaning now adays as anyone elses. Because we put way to much into the bs of martial arts. And not enough into the good stuff. Also as far as the thing you may not want to hear. I didn't because first of all it is not my place. And 2nd some of the people would think I was liying to cover my own butt. And I don't Lie. Plus also not everything in life has to be given to you. There is a such thing as hard work. And you finding out for yourself. I am sure you would ask me to look on the board to find out info on bujinkan. Right! it is the same thing.
Hwarangdo is an amazing martial art. But Jungdo, In the few posts ive seen, some things confuse me. It seems as though you are more concerned with the ability to kick someones ass rather than growing as a person. And if all you want is to beat people, than history isn't really important i guess. "Those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat it" or something along those lines... I dunno. Hwarangdo fascinates me, My sensei holds a rank in it,(Don't ask me what rank, I've never asked) along with some other stuff. I would be very interested in talking about it more with you, I was under the impression that it was damn near impossible to find an authentic hwarangdo instructor without leaving the US and going to asia...
