Because the names are accurate. The guy who founded Hwarangdo made claims of it being a historical art when it was just something he pieced together. And people who have left his orginization have been convicted in secret courts and slandered. So I would think that the terms "fraud" and "cult" are quite appropriate. Oh, and Matt.. I see what you are saying now. I thought you were talking about early battles in the invasion by Toyotomi Hideyoshi. I think the Japanese were active in Korea before there was much in written records. I do not know if they really are a case of Japan being defeated by Korea or not.
Perhaps successfully resisting might be a better term. Defeating sometimes makes folks think that they went to Japan and defeated them there. The fact is that the Japanese attempted to annex Korea multiple times. And they were turned back. In these cases the Korean Military played important roles. Were they backed by the Chinese? Yes, but Korea still had an effective military force and was capible of actively resisting. As far as the claim that Korean's falsify their history, everything is far more complex than that. But the development of the folktales and legends about the fighting Hwrangdo is pretty well documented by both Korean and other scholars. When I have a bit more free time, I'll do the necessary google scholar work to come up with the related articles. In much the same way you just need to go to many TKD websites and pull up their history sections to read the rather outrageous claims of direct linkages from the traditional martial arts of old to the modern Korean arts. And then a further search would reveal that many organizations are now acknowledging the ties to Japan in the development of the modern Korean arts. History, while we all hate to admit it, is a fluid and subjective concept which tends to change quite a bit based on whose in power. As Orwell put it in 1984 "Who controls the present controls the past, and who controls the past controls the future." As I have also posted, no one gets out clean on this sorta thing. Again, look at how Japan is currently publishing lots of very racist pop culture material that is attempting to ignore their horrendous actions in Korea and China (And often claiming that they rebuilt both nations). Scary, scary stuff. - Matt
Admiral Yi is interesting. But facts are facts. Japan conquered Korea. Korea was only recreated through the actions of outsiders. The Korean government is still reacting to this and constantly changes history in order to puff themselves and their people up. National egos are fragile things. The anti-Korean and anti-Chinese slant in Japanese pop culture is no worse than the even more vicious anti-Japanese stuff coming out of Korea and to a much greater extent China.
Agreed. I was just point out that Korea did, on previous occasions, successfully (one way or another) repel invasion attempts. I'm not debating what eventually happened. I do somewhat debate the notion that Korea was only recreated through the actions of outsiders. That does downplay some of what occured. Plus, there's a lot of history between the reconsitution and the coup that also has a lot to do with the fluidity of Korean history. On the second point, I agree as well, I'm just less familiar with that. Like I said, no one gets out clean. - Matt
Well, many make claims. But from what I read the guy did put it together and seems to say that. Doesn't sound like they claim the art existed before he put it together to me. So what's the mix-up here? But what is this of cults? I don't understand. People can't leave? yikes
Maybe you are reading some other art's history. Hwarang-do has supposably existed for centuries and was taught to the current headmaster by some mysterious old monk when he was a kid. Of course, this monk seems to be as real as the guy who taught Ashida Kim his ninjutsu. Maybe they were one and the same. As for the cult thing.... Maybe you should read the link I already posted. http://www.hwarang.org/Personal.html Sections like the one titled "A Family Feud" are quite interesting. Whenever an ex-member leaves due to a disagreement over something, Jo Bang Lee and his senior guys accuse them of some crime in order to try to discredit anything they may say. That is not something I would point to as admirable behavior.
Wrong again Grimjack They were just posting there side of it as well. So if you have some thing that maybe worng you are going to just take it,. I so done with this post and and grimjack you are just a boar with this. But let me ask you this where do you get the info that you get. Do you take the time to get off the computer and talk to people who are in hwa rang do or do you just waste our time with the same old, same old. I find it funny how you want to trash on other arts and call them cults when they don't fit your ideal. Well lets take a look at you. I have heard it said that you are a member of the bujinkan. I remember a time when that was thought of as a cult. So your group is no better than the one that I am in. And I have spoke a few of the bujinkan people and they seem cool so why do you feel the need to do that. Unless it is doto the fact that you like acting like a child about things you have no idea of what you are talking about. And the sad thing is the admins let it happen. Over and over again you and your kind will be loud to spread lies without any recourse. I have yet to read you say anything positive about that art in any form. Or is it that you are just like alot of the fanboys that come on this post and forum. And I hate to say it but people like your self are the reasons that masters and high ranking people, well unlike Dale(bujinkan) will not come on the forum because of the childish acts of a few. So thank you for showing your side. But that is it just your side. Well lets see if I am right, he will come on and whine about the big bad cult tring to bash him. We just want a fair shake lake anyone else. Or are you just to blind by your own ego. You make the call grimjack.
What a strange attack on myself!!! You just attack anyone who disagrees with you. The Bujinkan as a cult? Really? Are you trying to change the subject? Hwarang-do systematically goes after people who leave the orginization and slanders them so as not to have to deal with the unpleasent facts they tell. It is sanctioned by Joo Bang Lee and you are continuing their tradtion of 'don't listen to them- the're bad!!!' That is cult- like behavior and you are engaged in it. Listen, if you want to talk about fracts, please do so. Don't attack me and don't try to destroy the reputation of people who have left the orginization so as not to have to deal with what they say. Lay out your facts calmly so that everyone can see them and then we can discuss them like civilized people. The way you post does not help the conversation at all and only raises the temperature. If you can't deal with facts and logic, I guess your only recourse is to flame away. So, can you deal with us like civilized people, or can't you do so because facts and logic are not on your side in this debate?
It's been a while - wow this post has gone on! I think there are some good discussions about the history and done in a mature fashion by the guys above. They state their ideas, and what bothers them... but Grinjack, you have long been offering nothing mature to it except namecalling and misleading info from way back. You also keep pointing to the founder as spreading lies. But half the things you say are untrue. No monthly payment plans, can't watch a class... where are you getting such bologna? Was it easier to spread false facts because there weren't any HRD practicioners before to counter? You claim "all these students" are leaving and saying the same thing... but in reality... you just keep linking info to the same bitter guy. I'm starting to wonder it you are that guy! LOL! Serously, though, since when does a student or two constitute such a credible crowd? How about the hundreds or thousands of Hwarangdo practioners and ex-practicioners out there, Masters and newer students alike, who have different experiences and different stories about the guy too? Have you spoken with them? Or are you relying soley on students who have been expelled or shown a pattern of disloyalty? If you want to keep posting Dugan's site as your bible, and his expulsion as a reason for calling the art a cult, then let it be known that there is much more to it. Do you expect anyone educated to believe that this guy (and that other guy in SF) just left, said a few things, and suddenly got slandered for it - case closed? That simple? Were you also a student in Olympia at any time? Do you know what happened? It is not said on the WHRDA site specifically, never will, and I won't discuss it in specifics either -- why? Because it was a personal matter, people got hurt, and the subject needn't be described. But you keep hiding behind the ambiguity of the "accusations" and using it. They're ambiguous for a reason. Let me just say, since you brought up the point of admirable behaviour, think about this: if this guy you admire so much was a Commissioned Officer in the US military, and did what he did, and got caught -- he would have been courtmarshalled. Simple as that. He may be a nice guy and all, but wouldn't matter. Maybe such things are not such an issue in our modern, civilian society or where the end product is a BUSINESS venture where personal character is not so much in question -- but in the military, as a leader, it would have been grossly unbecoming of an officer, and he would have been discharged. As a Commissioned Officer for many years, maybe I have a different perspective about such situations than the mainstream. And I suppose you will next argue that the military fits the definition of a cult because of such conduct standards and martial ideologies. Fine, but a "martial way and lifestyle has to embody a higher set of standards" if it is going to be that way. I think it's great to offer sides, and post disagreements, and argue some history -- I love history, I am Korean, and I even have a degree in Korean studies! But you have to be mature about it. Looking at the past msgs you've posted, you have not been mature, and I'm not convinced that you are the truthseeker you claimed to be earlier.
Getting so wound up about the validity of their art’s history...It has a lot to do with pride but isn't that about it? Who cares if my martial arts system descended from a gaggle of “legendary eleven fire-breathers” or not. I chose Kuk Sool Won (after drifting through several other disciplines) because I liked the system, I like the range of soft to hard style, the aggressive hyung, the dizzying number of complex techniques, the weapons, and in a few belt ranks I would love to study the healing techniques… The possibility of “Hwarang” origins is a nice story, but it has nothing to do with why I love Kuk Sool.
That is one of the most smartest post on this forum today. And this is the point I have be tring to make all along as well as the one that lusanti made.
Also Grimjack I love a good debate but there needs to be a level of respect on both sides. You use slander on me with out even knowing who I am. For all you know I could be one of the people that train with you in your class. And just made up this username just for fun. But you right of the box come and slander me and an art that I love. Come on now I am sure you are smarter than that. And if I wanted to slander your art I would have done so. Trust me there is enough that I could. But unlike yourself I see the beauty in other arts. I think the bujinkan is cool for what it does. I just like hwa rang do more that is all. I think that you need to find in yourself what makes you happy and then you will not be so hateful. I have watched you, you only post on the bujinkan and anything that has to do with hwa rang do. Just wondering did you ever have someone that was close to you in hwa rang do. And they got a bad deal from a fake person claiming to be in hwa rang do. Or were you kicked out yourself. Because I really don't understand your hate for the art. And this is the last time I post on this, because like I said this post is old. And being the adult that I am I know when it is time to move on.
No maybe you are? I thought that so re-read some more. But still dont' think that is what they claim. The describe their art as totally created by founder - he claims lineage, but thatis different. To me, anyway. I am still researching, but I think you are mixed up. No offense though. I appriciate the link though. Does anyone know if hwarangdo use grappling and full contact? Not sure from website. Or just point sparring? I was interested in it becaus it sounded like it has a lot of variety in disciplines, and I like how it is under one organisation. It is different, I think, maybe more what I was looking for. That is all. Thanks.
Exactly how have I slandered you? You started attacking people who dared disagree with your teacher's version of events. You do not deal with the facts and just say that we should not pay any attention to that man behind the curtains. I have pointed out what you are doing. How is that slander? You have called me a liar. Exactly how have I lied? You made the accusation, now you prove that I lied by proving that Joo Bang Lee had a real teacher that links him back to the ancient Hwarang warriors. The best guess is he took a little Hapkido and other arts and changed things around to make it look like something else. So show me proof of the monk he said he learned from and then you can say I am a liar because I say I have seen no proof. Anyone can go into a Hwarang-do class and ask if they can watch a session. And as I said, they will be refused. They can also check with what I said about the monthly lesson plans, etc. People can see that what I write are facts for themselves, despite the obstruction and arguing from you guys. Can you prove your claims about the accusations the former members supposably commited? You claim they did bad, evil things and now can you show proof? If you can't show proof, are you not guilty of slander? And why can't any of you guys deal with any of the many facts and sources that has been presented here? It is not just one source, it is several ex-members showing how Hwarang-do has systematically slandered and convicted people in secret courts after they left of dubious charges. These people were not there when they were supposably tried, and now the Hwarang-do cult is saying that we should discount anything they say because they are bad people. You want to show some proof, or scream some more? I know I can beat the pants off of you guys if you would stop the insults and charecter assasination. Aren't you guys willing to have an honest debate and lay out some facts instead of flaming away? Or do you have to rely on flaming because the facts don't support your side of the story?
How about soemone actually answers some of the questions that Grim has raised? The best way to deal with this what Grimjack has said would be to answer the questions. Cut through all the rubbish, posturing and insults and deal with what's at the heart of the matter. I've said this loads of times now if something/someone is legit then there should be no problems in answering any questions asked. As for why question an arts history and if it is valid well if something is based on a lie what would that say about your current training and those who you study under? The history of an art has a direct influence on the way it is trained today does it not? So if your instructor is teaching a technique or concept which they say was developed because of x,y and z reasons during the development of the art but the art’s history is false i.e. it’s really a modern hybrid system then what does that say about what you are learning?
Grim here is why I say you don't know what you are talking about. I will brake it down just for you. AS far as people asking to watch a class and being turned away that was wrong. Here is why. I ask and was welcomed to watch more than one class. So that right there in your thought pattern is wrong. And as far as you saying that you never slandered me. that is wrong. I am a member of the group, that you call a cult. And you did that right out of the box. And just because some thing is posted on the internet dosn't make it true. You should know that. And we don't talk about what happend between Mr. Duggen and the rest because. It is childish and it is in the past. And as adults we don't feel the need conduct ourselves in such a way. If you want to know what happen on both sides. Why don't you ask Mr. Lee yourself since you feel so entitled to know something that is none of yours or my business in the first place. The facts as you "want" to see them are of only one side of a story. And if you feel the need to bash this art that is fine. And that is your thing. You just have to realize that there are people who will take offence to what you say. And trust me sir I have no real need to flame you or anyone. It just seems that you like looking for a fight. And you have baited me with the cult thing. And I will give you that one. But the game is over. You want to think that this art is a cult fine. Now here is something that you said It is not just one source, it is several ex-members showing how Hwarang-do has systematically slandered and convicted people in secret courts after they left of dubious charges. These people were not there when they were supposably tried, and now the Hwarang-do cult is saying that we should discount anything they say because they are bad people. And now I want to ask you this. Were you there Grimjack when that happened. I think NOT. So you want to take the word of a few people over the hundreds that do train in that art as your fact. That seems a little one sided to me. Come on now, I would like to think that you are smarter than that. And the things that you call facts, are hersay from people that where kicked out. I am not saying that these are bad people, but the acts that they did where wrong. I will not get into those because this not such a forum to be doing such things. And you want to talk about the monthly lesson plans. Isn't that better to pay month by month than a whole year. Come on now you are starting to make me laugh now. So what have we learned today. That grimjack has alot of homework to do before he asks questions. And that you should never take one persons side without having all your facts form (EVERYONE) involved in whatever happened. Otherwise it makes you look foolish. I will say this though grimjack. You ask why we never say what they did. I will tell you why. We hold ourselves to a higher standard, and we do not need to gossip like little childeren. I am sure your Soke would agree that acting in such a manner is unfiting for a true martial artist.
There are many misconceptions that the martial arts have always existed as we know it today. You have read right, the art of HRD was created by the founder, not his teachers, not ancient Hwarangs. And many are mislead to think that HRD claims otherwise. Regardless of what you believe were his influences, it is what it is. Yes, it is very comprehensive! But that can also be a drawback depending on what you want. I think if one was looking for an art to try that just fits location and schedule, or specific discipline like sparring only, or just groundfighting, just swords, maybe a fitness regime with defense skills as a bonus...etc, then maybe it is not their ideal art. To try to master many aspects of martial arts requires massive practice and dedication -- otherwise one can find it hard to progress and improve. It is not for the lukewarm. And that's awesome! But I hear people talk crap about Tae Kwon Do and other arts just because they are maybe sport oriented, have different histories, or concentrate on kicks and punches or just something else. But so what? What if that is what they are looking for? If so, I think TKD is awesome, and Jujitsu, or Kendo... and personally, I think the truth is we are ALL looking for different things. So we can't judge which is better than the other. However, maybe you are looking for this. Like the guy above who described his passion for kuksulwon, he has found what he has been looking for and now he is happy, and he is probably using his art in balance with how he lives his life - to live to his/her potential, just as if on the mat! He takes ownership of his training, and that creates the true value. That is training right, that's what's important! This other grimjack guy spends most of his energy on forums, and complaining about HRD being a cult -- just a waste of time and energy... I think Jungdo is right, he's not happy and has other motivations, and I think that is tragic. But that is his life, his desires, and his own chosen path. HRD is definitely diffiCULT (haha, bad joke), but I think very rewarding if you are looking to devote and train seriously and stick with it, and to never give up - and also to make it a way of life. The 5 codes and virtues (I'm sure you've seen them on the site) are key in HRD, I can't describe their importance enough. HRD truly is a mindset, not just a curriculum. In HRD, mastery is not just mastery of fighting, but mastery in everything. To master the sword? To master hand to hand combat tactics? How about to master POETRY?! Or to master PHYSICS! To master SINGING! To master BREATHING! TO MASTER LIFE. Is that striving for a lot? Yes. Is it asking for one to constantly do and strive for goals that seem impossible? Sure. But it is this pursuit for betterment, and the conquering of our fears and shortcomings that we battle. Life is so damn short -- how we live life is what is important in the end. To be strong in body and mind. And HRD is about that. Sorry I rambled, but don't get me started on HRD, haha. Hope it helps.
Oh, and we only hold goat-sacrifices on the second Monday of every month unless it conflicts with belt testing. Dang, I probably shouldn't have joked about that with this wound up group! -- LOL!
Hi all, Could some on please show or point me in the direction of some verifiable proof i.e. Historical documents that that back-up the various claims made by Hwarang-do practioners and it's Chief Instructor? Is there anything independant out there that can verify it's history? Cheers
