Hwarangdo!!!

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by K93200, Jun 24, 2004.

  1. BlackDragon

    BlackDragon New Member

    Tust me I understand where you are coming from now.
    However they are going to do what they do no matter what you and I think.
    I just think that our lives would be much better taking apartthe art than the man it self. Also I am sure that the people you have trainned with. There do joo nim or what ever has steched things to help his or her school so what.
    is it right no. Is it done yes.
    I am just wondering this is not a slam, but what art do you do. I really would like to know and no I will not take a pot shot at it either.
     
  2. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    I'm not writing for them. People in cults are not ready to accept the truth from someone on the internet. Frauds know they are frauds and are not going to be convinced to tell the truth.

    I am pointing out things so that if someone comes along thinking about taking Hwarang-do, they have something other than the cheer leader sections version of things to make their decision on.

    As much as the Hwarang-do people would like to shut any critics up, they can't get us all.
     
  3. BlackDragon

    BlackDragon New Member

    no its good to have the other side.
    However I have read post on other forums. And it is all the same thing.
    So what he lied if he did. Life will still go on.
     
  4. lusanti

    lusanti New Member

    Someone's got personal issues and deaf ears. This does not make for good arguments or sharing new perspectives at all. I think, by now, personal agendas are obvious and flimsy moral highgrounds have been revealed.

    and analogies to raping 14-year old girls?
    Cults? C'mon... That just isn't right.
    :confused:
    In fact... That is just plain wrong.

    Wow. It's just loopy & immature. This is not the kind of forum to waste my time on anymore.

    Take care all, signing off MAP.
    Hwarang!
     
  5. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Again, I'll state that I've worked out with HwrangDo folks and found them to be good martial artists. So any beef I have has nothing to do with the martial content of modern day HwrangDo. However, GM Lee is a PUBLIC figure, making PUBLIC statements. And those statements, in terms of their historical claims about the Hwarang and their system's tie to the Hwarang are just not backed up by the wide variety of credible and reviewed research conducted by qualified historians inside and outside of Korea. And that I have a problem with. And I have the same problem with individuals in China and Japan who attempt to do the same things.

    Any art should stand or fall on the credentials of its practioners. There is no need to attempt to turn myth into reality to give your art some type of historical legitimacy. Whats worse about that is it builds unfortunate tales that can be used to legitimize approaches. IE Hwarang-do contains 108 weapon forms because those are the weapons that were taught to the Hwarang. Well we know historically that the Hwrang's were trained in Sword, Bow and Arrow (the royal weapon of Korea), Spear and Knife and thats about it. Or justifying the teaching of flashy jumping techniques because the Hwrang were taught that. And that runs counter to historians providing evidence that Hwrang were given minimal functional hand to hand training (as is the case with anyone who expected to go into battlefield combat).

    So again, the reason why I respond to these types of threads is simply to correct bad history. No malice is intended to the art.

    - Matt
     
  6. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Ah yes, the "we should not listen to all the facts these people are saying because they have agendas" approach. A good approach for cults, frauds and other people who are not able to deal with reality.

    But what exactly is my agenda?
    :cool:
     
  7. Jungdo

    Jungdo Valued Member

    <removed insulting, inflammator and antagonizing remarks bordering on personal attack in violation of MAP TOS.>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2005
  8. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    What a rude and immature post by Korean Warrior!

    I point out that there is no proof that Lee has had a teacher, say that attacking people that point this out is not honorable and say that threatening people with lawsuits also is not what honorable arts do and I get attacked like this????

    FYI- I was not kicked out of Hwarang-do. I jumped in on this only to stop the attacks on people pointing out problems with the history. I had no beef against the art. But now maybe I may develop one thanks to your behavior.

    I think you should apologize for this personal attack. Just because I have laid out things with facts and logic and you can't is no reason to rant on like you have. Check the rules of MAP and think on your behavior. I will accept an apology if it is offered in a proper tone and backed up with a real effort to modify your behavior and attitude.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2005
  9. Jungdo

    Jungdo Valued Member

    Well since you will not answer the pms
    I will do it this way. I am willing to call a truce with you. I will stop going after you.
    If you stop calling hwa rang do a cult. Which is away out of line and what started this hole thing between you and me.
    The ball is in your court G-man

    sorry K-man I got lazy
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2005
  10. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Now, can we get back to the subject without any personal attacks?

    There is no proof that Joo Bang Lee learned the art from a teacher as he says he did. Can anyone provide proof that he had a teacher? I can prove all of my martial arts training if I wanted to. Most people I know can.

    It is only the frauds that can't seem to provide indepedently verifiable proof.

    Like Joo Bang can't.

    Can anyone provide some sort of proof without getting insulting? Or using the tactics used by cults such as Scientology like threatening to sue the critics?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2005
  11. Jungdo

    Jungdo Valued Member

    here we go again
    And ya know what I am not taking a back what I said.
     
  12. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    KW, as someone who has no horse in this race it really seems Grimjack is making a lot of sense. His questions are cogent. The holes he points out in the official histories are serious ones. You aren't addressing his questions except with personal attacks. You are putting words in his mouth.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. From what you've offered, the Hwarangdo crowd can't even provide ordinary evidence. Their case becomes difficult for honest people to take seriously.
     
  13. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    Reminder to please keep on topic. Personal attacks against other members will not be tolerated. If ou can not answer/debate/discuss the points brought up, then don't post. Don't make it personal, it tends to show a lack of maturit on the part of the poster. Then I have to go to work, and I'm a lazy 'cuss.

    And it's truce not truths.
     
  14. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    We have seen how Hwarang- do practicioners attack and slander (or is it libel) those that dare leave Joo Bang Lee or publish unflaterring truths about the art.

    I think it is time that we hear the other side of the story from someone quite willing to point out that Hwarang- do is a cult- like martial arts association.

    http://www.hwarang.org/Warning.html

    I would appreciate it if we could discuss this clamly and with fact and logic rather than the typical "don't listen to him- he's a bad man!!!" we have heard from the Hwarang- do folks so far.
     
  15. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin Valued Member

    I dont mean no insult...but...I'm what's the topic?
     
  16. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Of the link I posted or about this thread?

    Well the link I posted is a response by a guy named Bob Duggan who left the Hawarang-do org in disgust and was afterwards slandered. If you read the post, you will see that the integrity of the Lee family has much to be desired.

    As for the topic of this thread, it is about Hawarang do. Anyone thinking of taking the art will probably want to read this thread. The followers of the art can say what is good about it, some of the rest of us can tell the nasty secrets of the art (it was made up and is only low level Kuk Sool Won, the orginization acts like a cult, etc) and they can make a decision to train in it or not based on this.

    I think that this is important because as one poster on another board put it,

    So, if you want to learn about Hwarang do, you can't sit in on a class. You can't pay for only a short time to see if you like it or not. And you can't ask too direct a question or have any sort of proof that they are as good as they say. So threads like this may be the only way people can make a choice without paying huge amounts of money.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2005
  17. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    To those that are thinking of studying Hwarang-do, the following should be read before making a decision.

    http://www.hwarang.org/Personal.html

    From the sound of the above article, it seems that maybe Bob Dugan's orginization has done a better job of improving the art than Joo Bang Lee. While Joo Bang Lee probably will never admit he could do things better- Bob Dugan is free to examine things and improve on them as needed.
     
  18. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin Valued Member

    I dont mean disrespect or anything..but it's a CULT!
     
  19. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    The people who left Hwarang-do have been slandered by Joo Bang Lee's orginization. Some of the accusations have been made on MAP and in this thread.

    I think the other side of the story by yet another ex-student should be read before someone thinks of joining the art.

    http://www.dsystem.com/response.htm

    All these ex-students, all telling the same stories. All labeling HWD as a cult. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :confused:
     
  20. Chuin

    Chuin Banned Banned

    Let me say somthing, oh I just did.

    Well I dont really care about where it came from China Korea Japan.
    I do know that in pre history people migrated from Asia China if you wish out to Korea and I think Korean Farmers actually migrated to Japan. Did you know there are some abroringal indians (i dont know the correct term) that live in Japan and in Taiwan too.
    I have also seen maps of Korea before it was called Korea and at one time Korea kingdoms covered most of China.

    All martial arts of Korea came from Japan? What did the Koreans use during the three Kindoms period for all those wars?

    In 1592 Japan invaded Korea, did the Koreans know TKD Karate then?

    I would a statment like all areas in the world have some indigious martial arts. It may not be systemized but indeed there has always been fighting among people and tribes, cities and countries. What about the Greeks and Romans did they learn karate too?

    I really get tired of the Japan origin of all martial arts, and the Shao lin temple crap of all the Chinese martial arts.

    Duuuudddes!

    There were thousands of battles and wars before Japan and ShaoLin. Read some history but not MA slanted history. Just straight history.

    Now let this dumb debate continue...
     

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