I was doing some research about Taekwondo's history and I noticed that the Korean peninsula a long time ago had these seven martial arts styles, when combined together they made taekwondo. But another thing I noticed was that before this there was a military group in Silla, (now part of south korea), where they had invited a Chinese buddhist monk and he taught these group of warriors called the HwaRangDo warriors. Hwarangdo is "way of flowering youth/manhood". I looked at some photos that this guy showed me of what HwaRangDo fighting style looks like today. So many things there are similar to TaeKwonDo that i took. They had my flying side kick and everything. Does anybody here take HwaRangDo, if you do could you talk to me a little about it, I want to get to know this style better since it's so close to mine.
I don't want to rain on your parade mate, but there's a few things you need to know about this issue: 1) Most information on the history of Korean martial arts has either been written by Korean nationalists or used those nationalists' material as a source. Therefore, be very careful where you get your info. I would estimate about 90% of what's out there is as much fantasy as Lord of the Rings. 2) What the hwarang were is still up for discussion, but it's very likely that they were not warriors. It's probable that training as a hwarang was more like being an Ivy League or Oxbridge graduate; you were being groomed as a leader, usually a political one rather than a military one. Training probably included archery and charioteering, but that's because they were common pastimes for nobles back then. 3) Hwarangdo as a style has nothing to do with the hwarang. It was founded in the 60s by Joo Bang Lee and is related to hapkido, so it has more Japanese origins than Korean. 4) TKD was not formulated from ancient Korean styles either. It has its roots in Japanese karate. Understand though that I'm not criticizing the effectiveness of these styles, just the right-wing propaganda that has become the norm when discussing the history of Korean martial arts.
You could say that mate, yeah. Obviously, they're not the only ones guilty of revisionist history in martial arts, but they do have a particular talent for it in my experience.
It's just a sad reality of human nature that HWD had to use this name to trick people into interest. :cry:
Hwarang Do is Kuk Sool Won up to fourth degree blackbelt. Some of the techniques might be shifted to different belts, but they're the same. Even the forms are the same.
On point (4), I have heard arguments that if you go even further back, Japanese Karate has origins in Korean martial arts; or possibly Chinese martial arts migrating through Korea. Much like Buddhism.
I think this is a myth perpetuated through Korean nationalism. Karate, as I understand it, likely does have heavy influences from China, but it is dubious that Chinese martial arts would have come from Korea.
I am sorry but you are waaaaaaaaaaaay off on this one my friend. First I want ask where did you get your info from as far as what Hwa rang do may or may not have in it. Also have you ever trainined in the art yourself. If not then you might want to have your facts checked. First of I know Cheif Master Tae Joon Lee very well( oldest son of Dr. Joo Bang Lee) And I also have trainned in the art and will be going back to the art soon. To help you understand the art better so you have more of the truth to guide your thoughts. I will share some links with you all to put an end to the he said, she said about this art once and for all. Besides it is getting really old really fast. How people will claim to have an understanding of somthing but have never truly experinced it for themselves. But yet know everything about it. So here we go. http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd1.htm http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/history/map.htm http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/60s.html http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/MACSJune02.htm http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt9-00.htm http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt10-00.htm http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt11-00.htm And before anyone starts using stuff from Mr. Duggen and will say that he is telling the truth. I will say that this man is no longer with us. Because of his own undoing. case in point. http://www.hwarangdo.com/judicial/judicialcomments1.htm I am sorry if I am coming of sounding mean or hateful it is just I am sick of misscomunication in the korean arts taken as truth. Because someone's master or Do joo nim can deal with the truth. But to those that have open minds and like to think on there own and not be like the pack(even though it is easier to do) I hope you find this info to be of some help to you in incressing your understanding of korean arts.
sorry I also forgot http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm and http://hwarangdo.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73 I also hope this helps you all
Korean Warrior, Something you should understand is that the roots of all Korean styles are up in the air. It's very hard to discern where each of the arts came from. There have been a lot of shouting matches over which came first and where it came from. Specifically there are 3 Korean styles that started (in their modern forms) roughly the same time (you'll find all kinds of timelines that differ). These are Hapkido, Hwarang Do, and Kuk Sool Won (note: Kuk Sool Won as an official name came about in 1972, but Kuk Sa Nim, In Hyuk Suh began teaching "Kuk Sool" in 1958). I'm not going to say what I believe as far as the origins because it may very well be wrong. Basically everything that is written about origins of these styles is controversial and hard to prove. I myself have never studied Hwarang Do or Hapkido, however I do know people that have. I know that the techniques in all 3 styles are virtually identical (not necessarily the order in which they are taught though). I don't know anything about forms except that Hapkido doesn't use them. I understand your obligation to correct someone that you feel has made an error, but my purpose for this post is just to ask that you not help to perpetuate an argument that has been going on for a while. IMO all three styles are strong and can be effective arts. We should all be content in what we study. Thanks for listening to me rant a little. This was not intended to be offensive/argumentative.
Good call. Korean martial arts history, no matter what style or association or federation is most likely propaganda. EVERYONE and their Korean martial arts mothers lay claim to the Hwarang and Silla and those god awful statues of Keumgang or what not. The only history that can be proven are the histories of the arts post Japanese occupation. Those at least, can be verified by people who are still alive today. However, there still is a little controversy over histories post occupation (ie. General Choi and the WTF) and I fear what will become of these histories once the older generations pass and there are no primary sources....
Of course those sites claim that the martial arts originated in Korea, you got your info from hwarangdo.com and hwarangdo.net - what did you think they were going to say?
You know what, you are going to think what ever you and that is fine. But let me ask you this where did you get your info from. I am sure it is not from people who are in good standing with WHRDA. I would like to hear your soure of information and maybe we can find out what is going on. Look I am not trying to start a fight however. I just want to know where he or she got there facts from.
The real history, or the one in the book? According to the book: it's a compilation of all of the traditional Korean Martial arts, from Suh's grandfather and buddhist temples. There are royal court martial arts, family martial arts, and temple martial arts in Kuk Sool. In reality: Large amounts of it come from Hapkido, which is based on Japanese Jiujutsu (Daito Ryu Aikijutsi, I think), with some kicking techniques that may have been developed in the last 60 years or so (although one source claims that they actually are from Korean temples). There appears to be influence from Praying Mantis Kung Fu as well, and possibly a few other scattered sources. Because of the occupation in Korea, practitioners of Japanese arts who wanted to teach were often unwilling to admit that the arts were Japanese and made up some kind of false history surrounding them. To give martial arts an air of authenticity, it is also not uncommon to make up a history to legitimize them. No doubt the arts that came from China and Japan were heavily modified and synthesized in Korea, making something fairly unique. But the joint locks that I've learned in Shorei Ryu so far look a hell of a lot like Sohn Maek Soo. I think GM Choi from Hapkido and Joo Bang Lee from Hwarang Do heavily influenced Suh when he developed Kuk Sool, but I think a lot of influence also went the other way, from Suh to Lee, and we have two arts that up to a point, are virtually identical - even moreso than Kuk Sool and Hapkido. As for my sources: Some of it was from Sokklab, a user right here on MAP. Some was from http://www.hwarang.org/ Some was from http://www.concentric.net/~sdseong/kmar.vid.kshkd.htm And the "Praying Mantis" as the specific style of Kung Fu was from one of my Shorei Ryu instructors who has 25 years experience in Korean arts, and was a student of Kuk Sool-Hapkido. I've probably read history from other sources, but I can't remember them all right now. For example, I remember reading about the connections between Tae Kwan Do and Karate, but I can't remember where.
You are probably correct that Korean nationalism is at play. Japanese nationalism is also at play, as well as China's 'country at the center of the world' philosophy. The reason I give the theory a smidgen of credibility (I do not believe it to be the whole story either), is as follows: One of the articles we read in Cultures of Asia discussed a "history of Japan" video at the Disney resort, and how the video just said that Buddhism came to Japan from China. The article noted that the video overlooked the fact that Buddhism came to Japan from China via Korea. Seeing as Buddhist temple martial arts is one of the bases for our own practice... it makes sense to me that some martial arts principles would migrate with the religion. Circumstantial evidence that may or may not support the concept is the fact that Guatama Buddha was from India, and his story says that at one time he went to the wilderness and became a Yogi. There are a number of similar poses between Yoga and the Mon Pohl Gi warm-up exercises we use for Kuk Sool. My theory? People everywhere and at all times have needed to defend themselves. Human bodies move in a certain number of ways. And people and ideas have always travelled the world. So you get a mixture of parallel development and cross-fertilization in any body movement - dance, martial arts, whatever.
All those background ideas are controversial right now. Some people say all MA's come from India originally, some say otherwise. But you can bet that all the chinese, Korean, Japanese historians exaggerate their importance on the MA world.....
Definitely! Very controversial! How does the saying go? History is written by those in power? Going through this thread has been entertaining, insightful, but got me wondering -- maybe because I've seen so many like it -- it always follows a similar pattern... Sure, histories are always controversial and sources are often too little or too many. But everyone seems to be a foremost expert at the same time? -- Isn't that worse? It may have been Lao Tsu who said: "Those who know, don't speak. Those who speak, don't know." It's interesting how we often (usually male, haha, I'm guilty too) will respond to someone else's questions with such foremost authority regardless of how little we really know. I think it is in our culture (here in America, anyway) that, as a sign of independence and maturity, we must, regardless of understanding, hold strong opinions on everything FIRST, and to flaunt them to the world as truth, challenging others to shake our beliefs second. It's ingrained since we are kids. Anyhow, in these particular type of cases, the most "knowledgeable ones" never seem to be students of the art or studied it; either there are no sources for the he-said/she-said facts, or they're from "internet forum wisdom" (the worst kind when used alone). It surprises me. This is probably one of the better threads like it, as some actually offered suggestions of what they think and why, perhaps even admit to not knowing for sure... great! why not leave the door open to seek knowledge from someone with more credibility? We know what we believe, but shouldn't we always assume there's more? Like growing? No! It's always about being able to provide an answer quickly, authoritively, and close the case. But, then when challenged, it's always about 'history being too complex or slanted for politics, so no one knows for sure'...etc. That's right! But, a minute ago, they knew the answer so confidently! Even being Korean, being a student of the Korean martial art, knowing Dr. Joo Bang Lee and Chief Master Tae Joon Lee, and having a degree in Korean studies doesn't compel me to respond to someone's request for knowledge of, say some other Korean art, with such cockiness and bravado. We know what we believe, so should we? Perhaps we (in HRD) are trained as humble students and most importantly as truth-seekers, that the drive to answer in such a way is not in our nature or our interest. But maybe we should; after all, not speaking also promotes confusions and mis-interpretations? Anyway, as a student of the art, (going back to the topic of how one can learn more about Hwarangdo) I'd suggest going ahead and give an open minded listen to those who are students of the art you ask about, and not totally dismissing information presented (such as the websites someone offered above) just because certain people say so very convincingly that it is all incorrect. I remember one guy on some site claimed that he was the true inventor of the fictional history and curriculum, and that Dr. Joo Bang Lee stole it so he can make money. What? He was in his 30s, it didn't make sense, but he sounded very authoritative with the written word. As critical thinkers, we trust you will always carry healthy skepticism no matter what. And in the end, you will ask what "you" believe. In my case, I have actually met Dr. Joo Bang Lee more than once; he is very incredible person. You just have to meet him or be in his presence to know that. I don't mean idolizing blindly, or perceiving him (or anyone) as some kind of god because of his title. No! There are just some extraordinary people in this world, and you just know it sometimes when you meet them. These are the people you want to learn about- become wiser from. And as a source to choose the most credible truth from, I had to ask myself if I want to learn from someone as rare as him, or from random folks on various forums -- or worse, from expelled practioners of questionable character (another thread). Then in concert with my own experiences as well as my years of studies of Korea can I feel I can formulate an answer to that for myself. I, too, am just another voice on a forum. And I do now believe in HRD and continual learning. Ugh, okay, I apologize that this was probably way too disjointed since I'm just typing away madly with ideas from not just this, but other forum threads that were surprisingly similar in regards to HRD... The art has been sparking lots of questions lately, and it just seems that everyone in every other art suddenly knows the absolute truth about HRD so adamantly, and their truths are always completely different! Just give the HRD-site information an open mind; there could be a wealth of good information in there to help make up your own mind. Good luck in your quest for further knowledge! Lao Tsu also said: "To know that one doesn't know is best. To pretend to know when one does not is a disease."
