Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by BklynJames, Mar 21, 2016.
I agree! I liked the article anyway mea culpa
Good points all around for sure. Here are my thoughts. On the numeration..with respect to the systems of five and so forth, this is a Confucian construct. Each is an ontological reference of similar items, so that they can be used semantically to create the 'systems' we know as these Chinese martial arts frameworks, but quite frankly brother you can find the same systems in all sorts of Chinese culture, from mythology, cuisine, geospatial building architectures, gambling....you name it brother these folk have several systems for it. It's all very organized, in a way and so it becomes preservable as a form of record, not to mention it is modular, in that all you need to enhance your 'Five Animals" schema is to add 'Five Elements', 'Seven Stars', 'twelve bridges', '18 lohan', and so on. The Dang Fong/Fung format of Hung gar uses the 5 animals, 5 elements, 12 bridges, the 7 star fist, the great horse stance, and a significant number of weapons, which has have very numerical names.
On the training itself...I created a lot of personal heat while training in Hung gar, which caused a few episodes of heat exhaustion especially on hot, humid days when you can't sweat enough. My brother, keep a cool, wet towel handy at ALL TIMES !! Actively cool thyself at all times. NO matter what your training ideology is, in my opinion, Hung gar training is not for the weak willed. It's definitely a strong form of endurance training, if nothing else.
What about their proposal that rape be entirely legal on private property?
Jesus. I'd love to read the thought process around that... No... Wait.... I don't think I could handle it
Thank you IronFist and I agree with you especially since I lost you after the 5 Elements. But this is good research for me going forward and will give me something to do. Last night was my third class and it was a forms class. We did Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, I dont know the names of all the moves yet. But we got two steps past the fist in the hand. Maybe ten moves in. Sorry for not knowing the names yet. As for the overheating, i'm use to training in a dojo in the summer with no AC. So temps well above 100 degrees, but I do sweat like a pig all the time. I keep a tengui (Kendo Head Rag) in my belt to constantly wipe the sweat away. Thank you for your reply, very informative. Dont stop
Would very strongly beg to differ. In my opinion. the five animals are intimately woven through every form and application in Hung gar. and in fact many other southern systems.
The problem is that there are several different ways of thinking of the animals. Each valid in there own way. So for example the 5 animal hands are in all of the forms, these are, tiger, dragon, snake, panther/leopard and crane.
While they are poetically linked to the animal, and the link does tell you something about the hand and the application e.g dragon hands are used for pulling and twisting grappling motions and for explosive short range strikes. referencing the dragons sinuous movement and its connections with chi.
They are not about imitating the animal. dragons after all do not exist.
A good way to look at the hands for a beginner is to observe the way the body moves behind the hand.
DO NOT WORRY ABOUT RECREATING THESE MOVEMENTS.
just watch how senior students move when the use a tiger hand for example. when you do the movements yourself just be aware of how your body is moving. Different hands suit different ways of body movement and different ways of power generation. Tiger is linear, dragon is spiraling, crane is cutting the angles while expanding or contracting in circles. the five animal hands are a great tool for exploring the different ways the body likes to move.
AGAIN I REPEAT - DO NOT WORRY ABOUT RECREATING THESE MOVEMENTS.
just observe how your body likes to move when it is doing them.
As far as the numerology goes - there is a whole language of both Buddhist numerology with significance of numbers and of magical numerology. things were often added to make up the numbers to make them more auspicious. there are numbers throughout all the forms. interesting if you are interested in that sort of thing but not necessarily relevant to practical application.
Yes what Tom says is true. While Gung Gee *** Fu is primarily an introduction to Tiger style, it also contains Dragon, Crane, Leopard, Snake, as well as Earth, Water, Fire, Metal/Gold, and Wood techniques, but in limited form (a couple of techniques in a set with well over 150 movements).
The animals, elements are really 'classes' of technique, laid out in an interactive model (really, the wu xing common to all sorts of cultural artifacts). The name for example Fire element is a hint to the type of techniques considered Fire (rapid, uprising attacks), but it's not that simple. There is also a system here of creative and destructive pairs (water 'destroys' fire, metal destroys wood, etc, but water creates wood, wood creates fire, fire creates earth, earth creates metal, metal 'creates' water (condensation) etc. This symmetry is meant as a guide as to how the techniques flow together, the necessary 'tone' and so forth, but not literally 'use water techniques to beat fire techniques'. Any port in a storm, obviously. But from a note-taking, and systematization, I found the 5 animal, 5 elements, 12 bridges philosophy very useful while learning, if for no other reason than it helps determine 'how much you've learned'. Completing the first half of Gung Gee *** Fu will teach a novice like me some key but basic concepts about all the animals, elements, and bridges. By the time I completed the last half I had expanded on that understanding and was training harder, and when I began the canonical Tiger and Crane Fist it was a a further expansion of many of the same basic animals/elements/bridges concepts learned earlier. In other words, little changed except that I understood a bit more with each progression, what it meant to 'Tiger' or 'Crane', why Crane and Wood Element are paired, or Tiger and Fire element. And how it should ideally fit together, when all is said and done, and all that really remains is to worry more about practice and less about the names.
Most importantly I also began to understand the importance of learning not to limit any technique to its formal animal or element, because they are indeed merely conceptual, they are 'buckets' for learning. To simply focus on what is Tiger or Dragon, as you advance, is like admiring letters or numbers themselves, rather than the complex, unforeseen things you can use letters and numbers to build. As someone who knows only part of the Hung gar system I feel knowing the animals/elements/bridges is the 'roadmap' handed down by the style's progenitors. Hopefully it won't hold anybody back, unless they get mired down in the taxonomy. Practice itself seems to be the key to moving beyond the basic 5/5/12 framework and into truly improvisational technique (which I understand to be the ultimate goal of the training, to merge all animals, elements, bridges etc into one being).
Upon reflection I did get one thing wrong. There is no cranes head hand in the version of taming the tiger practiced at our school. Plenty of cranes wing but no cranes head. I tend to forget this because we practice all the striking hands pretty much from the get go.
Does anybody else practice a version that does have a cranes head in it? Below is an example of what I call cranes head hand.
I've done the first 10 moves in the first form and have't seen anything yet. Or anything that resembles it.
what is the name of the first form you learn? From what I understand most lineages have the Hung ga forms, the hung lau gar and possibly some others as well. So there is space for variation on what form you learn first.
Yees is from Tang Fong, so they only have the straight Hung stuff. Their first form tends to be Gung Ji.
The first form I started with is Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen. I have gotten as far as the fist in the hand (Not sure of the name) where you thank the ancestors(Excuse me if i got that wrong).
Monday nights is forms, so you goto the class for the form your working on. Tues and thurs is conditioning and drills.
would you include Hung Lau gar as "straight Hung stuff?"
No. It's a Mok Gar set which has been modified to be more Hung.
No, it's unique to the Lam Sai Wing line (as he choreographed them), and they're Hung-gar-ised versions of Mok Gar and SPM forms.
Apparently it was choreographed by Lam Jo, not Lam Sai Wing http://practicalhungkyun.com/2013/08/true-origin-of-hung-ga-kyun-s-minor-hand-sets/
Buy SPM do you mean southern praying mantis? The Hung lau gar forms don't appear to have any southern mantis in them.
The Lau Gar fist set is based on Mok Gar. The pole set is based on Southern Praying Mantis. It's even named after a famous SPM master.
Thanks, that makes sense, I have never done Mok gar but I have done some hakka stuff similar to SPM. It didn't seem to make sense that Hung Lau fist and SPM are closely related.
So it seems that the different types of Hung vary? Some teach certain stuff and others dont. I know im in the very beginning stages of learning. But would you cross train in different types of Hung to make up for what you aren't getting in your current Hung style? Basically would you seek out other teachers to learn the forms/techniques your not currently getting in your stye?
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