How would one protect against the "shoot"?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Saved_in_Blood, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Of course I've had to stop my MT/KB lessons because of torn meniscus in both knees. I am starting PT in two weeks.

    I was however thinking about a conversation my instructor and I had about BJJ and how the typical response to protecting against the shoot (that is what I recall it being called) was "yeah, I'd just use an uppercut or my knee when they are on the way in". Now, in fairness to him that is what he has always called his first love (BJJ). His response was that it seems easy, but you really only get one chance, and it would have to be such a fast, accurate defense that it's highly unlikely. He then went on to say... if I want to take you down, there really isn't much you can do about it (speaking from the point of view of one such as myself who has zero experience with the art)

    What are your thoughts on this? Pivoting out of the way? I only ask the question as a fun thing. As you all know, I don't compete and have no desire to... and I'm to old :) So this would have to be a street thing. Put it in any scenario that you want though.
     
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Shooting in for a double leg is a very high percentage move against someone with no grappling training. The only non-technical defence is to get your legs out of range by any means necessary, but if the guy shooting has done it properly, you wont have chance to reset your balance and move before he has you dumped on your back.

    Don't pick fights with grapplers would seem to be the only real way to avoid being taken down like that.
     
  3. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I suppose this would be the best way to avoid it. They have an MMA class at my gym a few times a week which I wanted to get in on along with my lessons, but if I don't heal up properly then i'll just be out longer and I'm already getting pretty bored with being out for 2 weeks I guess it's been. Quite depressing.
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Using knees or pivoting is nice in theory, but if they're any good they'll set up the shoot so that you don't have the balance and structure available for a solid strike, or the time to pivot fully.
     
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    It depends there are more than 1 type of shot: for example a high shot as seen in MMA (where they don’t go to the knee) if seen in time you can level change and forklift them (using underhooks )and circle out, a low shot as seen in freestyle done from close range you either level change and sprawl or you go down hard

    The problem with the uppercut or knee defence is that if it’s a good shot it will have been set up correctly and done at such a range as you wont have time to do anything before they are in on your hips, even if its not set up correctly and done from further out that touching distance, you still have an awful lot of momentum to stop otherwise you are still going down even after hitting them and they will be on top, annoyed and looking to hurt you
    The most important thing with a shot is commitment (especially a blast double), you blow right through the guy you are hitting and plant him on the floor 6 feet behind where he is standing, an uppercut isnt stopping that type of hit

    As already mentioned don’t start fights with grapplers
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Those options all involve grappling skills, I presumed SiB was talking about pivoting off-line to strike, as in a pure striking defence against takedowns.
     
  7. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    My advice would be to train with people who actually train in a grappling system. I would also advise that you learn how to sprawl from a grappling instructor. The sprawl is one of the best ways to not be taken down from double or single leg takedown/shoot. Hope that helps!
     
  8. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Umm . . . . sprawling. And that's about it.

    Sprawling gets your legs out of the way and if you're strong/fast enough will get you back on your feet and the other guy will be on his knees or on his face. It's very easy to slam somebody's face in the mat who doesn't know how to keep their balance when shooting, if you know how to sprawl.

    Sprawling is very exhausting though, especially if your opponent knows what he's doing. Other than not getting in that range, there's no real defense (with a high probability of success) against it that doesn't involve intercepting the shoot and transitioning to BJJ stuff.
     
  9. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Sprawling properly is quite difficult though. I don't think you'd have much luck doing it successfully without a fair chunk of training and practice.
     
  10. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    You also have to remember sprawling only gives you a chance to stop a shoot. Go watch some local high school wrestling matches any you will see plenty of takedowns succeed even when the guy on the receiving end sprawls.

    And it's not just grapplers you have to worry about with takedowns. Some one with football or rugby experience can use a tackle to put you on your back as well.
     
  11. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    as a grappler, lateral footwork which makes me constantly adjust my range and line of attack, and a good level change and hard straight power punches which make me hesitant to shoot are your best bet in delaying or stopping me shoot, however once im committed to a shot I believe your only real response is a grappling one, uppercuts and knees can work, but they are so small percentage as to always make the highlight reel of any comp, and you simply don’t have the time to use footwork to avoid being takedown once a shot has been commited to
    if someone shoots on you and they are half decent (or even just really aggressive and commited_ your response had better be a grappling one, if its a high shot underhooks forklift defence circle out and hit them are your best bet, as paul daley is fond of doing if it’s a low shot learn to sprawl, if it’s a good grappler you are likely going down so id suggest learning some BJJ as well
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2014
  12. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    this is correct
     
  13. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Distance
    Stance/head angle
    Cutting an angle with footwork
    Hand fighting
    Forearm check/underhooks/cow catcher
    Stomping back while driving with hip (sort of a half sprawl)
    Full sprawl
    Sacrifice throws

    In that order, and with an immediate counter at any time when the shot itself is disrupted.

    Now if it's a single leg there are all kinds of nonsense counters you can use but the basic techniques that facilitate them are pretty much the same.
     
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    This is very true. In some comps (in a pure grappling sense), I have been taken down with just pure brutish "rugby" style takedowns.
    Only experience and technique helped me with dealing the "aftermath".

    I would say to still keep drilling a sprawl/burpees etc as it does give that 1 "chance" and sometimes thats all you need for the rest of your training to kick in.

    When talking about a SD situation though you do have other factors to bring in..(clothing/ability/environmental/crowd etc)

    That may over complicate things. So sometimes an "occam's razor" approach is best. Train with grapplers and have a play.

    :)
     
  15. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    Yeah it's often over-looked that good grapplers are trained to attack in combination (like good strikers). Just because you block the initial double doesn't mean that the wrestler won't chain into a single etc.

    Once a grappler is in close, defending from them is a continuous process of re-positioning and pre-empting their attacks. I sometimes get the impression that people mistake wreslters as one trick ponies who swoop in with the double leg and are flumoxed if the take-down doesn't go exactly as planned.

    Wrestlers are experts when it comes to improvising.

    "You stopped me from getting in and under your hips? Doesn't matter... I've already got a hold of your leg."
     
  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Good footwork does work, but you need to be a really accurate striker with exceptional timing. I'm tall so sprawling is a problem for me, my footwork and jab cross does well though.
     
  17. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    What Chadderz said. You have to preempt the shoot. If you can use your footwork and striking to keep them from setting up a shot you have a chance.

    Now of course wrestlers love to watch MMA so you may not know they are a grappler at first. They will be standing there in a crappy boxing stance with crappy punches but rather good footwork then all of a sudden change of level, explode into takedown.

    And a takedown is a lot faster than it looks.
     
  18. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    On a practical note, range is the main factor here. An aggressive and consistent jab or straight left, coupled with good foot work has always worked for me when I wanted to keep someone at a distance.

    If you know the guy is a wrestler the best advice I can give to a striker is to make sure the wrestler knows that you will pop him the second he gets to close. You want to force him into long lunging attacks, if he gets the opportunity to start pushing up and invading your "personal space" without having to defend himself then that's when he'll become a problem for you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
  19. TKDDragon

    TKDDragon Valued Member

    Learning to sprawl is the highest percentage. Sacrifice counters like tawara gaeshi work well but then your firmly in the grapplers world, which in a street self defense situation is less than favorable.
     
  20. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    The other thing. You still need to train against it. Much like seeing a right hand, you see the shoulder first and are ready for it. Same thing, you still need to recognise a shoot before you can defend it (even with footwork).
     

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