how 'traditional' are muay thai matches in ny?

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by BlackFlag, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. BlackFlag

    BlackFlag New Member

    I just joined a muay thai gym and im very excited. i was curious so i looked up some muay thai fights with people from thailand and i noticed they did a ritual dance and they played some kind of strange music during the fights.

    I was wondering do they do the same thing with fights in ny or, more broadly, in the united states? I wondering what the flavor of the fights are, both in professional and amateur. Also any idea who sanctions the fights in NY?

    Sorry if this has already been asked and answered. I couldn't find anything in a google search.
     
  2. SBK

    SBK Banned Banned

    That dance is mostly tradition but also a stretching exercise. Having that dance as part of the curriculum doesn't necessarily make any school a good one as neither do having teachers who are Thai, etc. After being trained by former champions in Thailand with over 400 fights, I can say that I've learn more from an American amateur fighter with under 10 fights who did MT as only a hobby/side job.

    Also the fighting culture in the USA is different than in Thailand. A Thai kid growing up in Thailand would learn to kick and kicks a lot, whether he's really trained or just watching Kung-Fu movies and fighting in the ring or the streets. While Americans tend to punch more in the ring or out in the streets. There are certain things that needs to be addressed in points of defense and such to adapt to the different cultures. So just because they do it a certain way in the videos from Thailand, doesn't necessarily make it better when applying it in the US.

    And certain rules are different, like elbows to the head has only recently been allowed in some states but usually for Pro fights only. Some states don't even allow knees to the head. Although in MMA, all of this has been allowed, so weird. Schools have to adjust their teachings in adapting what works best for competition under such rules.

    Then it depends on what you're looking for, personally. I fight in competitions but also train for the street. My techniques are more street oriented in terms of my points of defense, which unfortunately, gets me in trouble in the ring in certain circumstances.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Explain please?
     
  4. daggers

    daggers Valued Member

    punches are one of the lowest scoring shots in a thai boxing fight. unless it has good effect. the body kick and knee are two of the highest scoring shots. and a good counter to a punch is kick to the body. THATS why thais dont use punches as much.
    and would explan a lot of times why uneducated thai boxers get beat and dont know why!
     
  5. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Back in the early '90s a MT trainer friend told me that elbows were legal (at least in NY,and maybe not just for pros but I can't swear to that part) but if it was known that you used them you would have a hard time getting fights. I was kind of surprised at this. He did mention if you front kicked someone in the face you WOULD get an elbow. (Loss of "face",I guess).Seemed silly to me,either use them or not -but use them just 'cause someone made you look bad?

    Probably just took awhile (and MMA) to get more people used to the idea- the idea of the possibility of not just getting kod but the idea of possibly having your face reconstructed after. How many pro MT fighters in the US back when it started getting popular? Not all that many,and not much money. Plus people knew that more deaths in the ring in MT were caused by elbows than other strikes. So,kinda understandable why most folks shied away from elbows in the ring.Guess it was a kind of "gentleman's agreement" at the time.

    I know,a kick can require facial reconstruction too.But as I said,"the idea".

    So maybe we can just chalk it up as something in US MT culture in the past which is now being overcome.

    As far as I remember pro fights were sanctioned by the NY Athletic Commision-same as boxing. Still true?
     
  6. SBK

    SBK Banned Banned

    Well one example would be my points of defense would be different on the street vs. the ring....when I throw a rear leg roundhouse without the 45 degree step forward....like if I'm throwing a switch step RLRH, flying RLRH or standing RLRH. So I'm throwing this RH with my head almost in the same place.

    In a MT ring fight, the points of defense should be lead arm, covering the left side with elbow tight to my side ribs and palm tight against left cheek. This gives minimal protection to my head and more to my body. Because in general, the return or counter (whether I land my RLRH or not), is going to be the opponent's RLRH to my body before my rear leg even touches the ground after retracting from my initial kick. He could go high, but usually it's to the body as it's easier (especially when he just either got kicked by my RLRH or shielded it, so his lead leg may not even hit the ground yet when he throws his kick)..... while his kick to my body will score more points than a low kick.

    While on the street, I'm usually going to be fighting someone untrained who I'm probably going to destroy. Usually, once he sees me make a move or already got kicked and haven't dropped yet, his reaction is going to want to throw his right cross (rather than kick). My points of defense would then be, lead palm reaching across my face with the thumb checking my right shoulder to guard against a counter or return, right cross. So my forearm and palm is guarding my face in case he's fast and is a good fighter....and does get that right cross counter off fast enough. Especially w/o the big boxing gloves to cover my face.

    And more than likely, I would do the full step 45 degrees forward RLRH with these points of defense for the street to further avoid the right cross, especially if it's in form of a counter.

    The other POD's remains the same.
     
  7. SBK

    SBK Banned Banned

    Well I know that but fighters still punch a lot in the USA as compared to Thailand.

    If he's throwing a punch at you, and therefore in punching range, how are you going to counter with a kick to the body? His punch will land first, especially if you're throwing a counter.
     
  8. SBK

    SBK Banned Banned

    Maybe in some underground fight but not sanctioned. I'm sure about this, because it's a big deal for us recently since we had to modify some strategies around. NYC is pretty tough when it comes to rules. But even in our area, MMA has been allowed to throw elbows and knees to the face for years now, but MT was not until just recently.

    http://www.fighters.com/12/16/“full-rules”-muay-thai-headed-to-new-york-in-january

    The front kick to the face is usually only disrespectful in Thailand. The Thais regard the feet to be very dirty/lowest part of the body, etc. And to put it into someone's face is very disrespectful. Although cracking them with the top of the foot, in the face is fine. Those Thai fighters usually know each other and many are friends outside of the ring also. I guess unless they really want bad blood or something, they wouldn't do. We don't have that cultural taboo in the US though.
     
  9. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    OK,but at the time I don't think he was talking about underground fights. Is it possible NYS later decided elbows were a no-no? As I said this was about 20 years ago. He was Sirusute's rep in the northeastern US. He wasn't involved in underground fights. At least the ones I remember were in a pretty public venue.

    Of course I could have misunderstood but I don't think so. I'll admit the history of MT rules in NYS isn't one of my areas of historical inquiry so it's not important enough to me to look up. Do you know what the rules were 20 years ago? That's a question,not a wise guy remark. ( Tried your link in case it spoke of old rules but the page just loads and loads.Dial-up bites).

    And as far as the front kick to the face elbow retaliation he was speaking of here,not Thailand. Possible he did mean non-official matches between gyms,I suppose. If so he didn't make that clear. Is it possible that this retaliation idea was just something guys at the time were getting from the various coaches here who were Thai ? A Thai cultural thing from what you say so maybe just part of the MT culture in the US then?

    Gee,now I'm curious from the anthropological standpoint.
     
  10. daggers

    daggers Valued Member

    In a MT ring fight, the points of defense should be lead arm, covering the left side with elbow tight to my side ribs and palm tight against left cheek.

    did you know that if the arm gets kicked while tight to the ribs and cheek the shot scores! it must be away from the body, solid and resisting against the kick with the forearm. it shows more control and will not move you off balance the way it would if your arms were tucked in. at least thats the way its scored in thailand and uk a lot more now. maybe this is why you didnt get what the thais were trying to teach you.
    seriously.. watch any thais fighting and youy will never see them tuck arms into the ribs and palm to cheek to defend a r/house, the arm is always away from the body. and ifyou DO see it then that thai is being scored upon and he knows it
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  11. SBK

    SBK Banned Banned

    I'm not sure about the Muay Thai scene in NYC 20 years ago. But almost exactly 20 years ago, UFC 01 started in 1993 and the level of brutality was to high for it to be allowed in most states, especially NYC. They had to go to Colorado and then later to Alabama, etc. Not known as fighting capitals that draws large crowds and sponsors. Although UFC 1-4 was a lot more brutal than MT though, so I really can't say other just a rough guess that elbows to the head wasn't allowed yet.

    Back then, it was rare for people to have video cameras and such, so had a gym organized fights that allowed such illegal strikes for NYC, they should be able to get away with it.

    Yea I'm not 100% sure but I've never heard about this being a problem in the US. I've teep kicked guys in the face in competition before, as well as side kicks to the face. TKD does it a lot too, and much more often than MT...where the soles of the foot can make contact to the face.
     
  12. SBK

    SBK Banned Banned

    I'll take the loss in points over less damage. I'm not risking breaking my lead arm. But the lead arm usually never gets tucked tight in time anyway due to it being a fight, not hitting the bag.
     
  13. daggers

    daggers Valued Member

    Right oh!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  14. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    daggers its nice to see someone knows about Muay Thai:)
     
  15. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Yeah,one of our senators got the legal wheels turning against having those fights in the state.Geez. Still wonder if MT had been sort of under the radar and if it wasn't 'til all the attention the UFC got that then elbows were totally banned in the state. If I see my buddy one of these years maybe I'll remember to ask him!

    As to sole/ball to face kicks, I was speaking of then and mused if it was just a "head" people got from their coaches at the time. I'd expect that to change over the years here anyway. Of course TKD/Karate/Kenpo/etc wouldn't have a problem with it,at least as a "face" thing,no pun intended.

    " most states, especially NYC. " I just thought you should know that there really are people here in upstate NY.:D
     
  16. Teflon

    Teflon Valued Member

    Checking a kick is done with both shin and forearm in line, this is one of the first things usually taught at MT. This is the primary method of blocking a body kick, and works just fine. Holding the arm tight against the ribs is an alternate option for if you weren't quick enough to check the kick, or if your leg is too damaged to do that. Either way, its a worse place to take the kick, and eventually your arm will take a lot more damage this way.

    When checking, the forearm is used in a straight position, in line with the shin, and locked out to resist impact. The outside of the forearm is a long bone, similar to the shin, and is able to withstand the impact much better. Holding the arm against your ribs forces you to take the kick across the top half of the arm, striking into a softer area. Kicking this area has been used as a tactic by many MT fighters, it eventually smashes your arm up and forces you to sacrifice attacking/blocking with the lead arm. Not to mention your arm can be broken by doing this as well.
     
  17. Teflon

    Teflon Valued Member

    Also, countering a straight punch with a roundhouse kick is something I've always considered a basic counter in relation to Muay Thai. I honestly can't understand how you believe the roundhouse is not viable in punching range, or that the punch would get there first.

    Firstly, MT kicking range is not the same kind of kicking range that you may see in other arts. Many times when you hear about kicking range vs punching range, its because the kicks in question are landed with the foot in one way or another, and use the full reach of the leg to land. Take a look at an MT fight, pretty much any one of Youtube will do, and watch the positioning of the fighters when using roundhouse kicks specifically. The fact that it lands with the shin, on a straight support leg, reduces the range to be around the same as a straight punch. So no, you are not out of range.

    Secondly, when throwing this counter, you lean your had back and away from the punch. Your kick will land into fully exposed ribs, and whichever side is exposed (same side the punch comes from) should also be moving towards you, amplifying the kick power and usually knocking the puncher off balance and causing a missed punch anyway.

    This and the point from my last post have me curious to ask a couple questions of you. Do you do MT as its own sport, or in some other form, like perhaps as a component of MMA? Also, have you fought MT rules?
     
  18. SBK

    SBK Banned Banned


    What you are describing here is DEFENSE in forms of shielding. I wasn't talking about defense. I was talking about POINTS of DEFENSE during an offense or counter.
     
  19. SBK

    SBK Banned Banned

    Yes, I've fought MT, K1 and MMA. Just no elbows to the head in MT as it was only recently allowed in this area. However, elbows to the head has been fine in my MMA fights.

    And I didn't say it was impossible to counter a straight punch with a kick. Anything is possible, especially if you're fighting someone who sucks at punching or a noob in gneral. Arguments such as these assumes that both fighters are equally matched. Which _USUALLY_ means that if I'm in punching range, then my fist is going to get there first, especially if you're countering. Once my jab lands, a lot more is following. You seem to think that I'm going to lead with my RH cross.

    Sparring with fighters my level, sometimes I do get kicked by such counters or returns, but it's usually with off balanced kicks not generating much power because they're too busy getting their face lit by my fists.
     
  20. SBK

    SBK Banned Banned

    That does sound very plausible. MT was almost unheard of during the days of the McDojos in the 80's and 90's. I believed Maurice Smith brought standup striking back to life in MMA when he started winning titles in the late 90's or so, and he was a Kickboxer. Good thing MMA went the MT route rather than the KB/Karate one. Very sure though that they weren't sanctioned with elbows allowed. In our state, it's like a $10,000 fine per incident if the athletic commission finds out.
     

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